Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

FSD Really This Bad?

My Refresh S is in the shop (again) and they gave me a 2017 S loaner car. My S doesn't have FSD. I don't drive enough to justify the price, so I didn't want it. The loaner S does have FSD so I decided to see for myself how cool it was and maybe try to justify adding it to my car. The stupid car tried to kill me and piss off other drivers in the short time I allowed it to drive!

First minute of turning on, it phantom-braked from 75 to 45 with nothing around but overhead signs and a bunch of pissed off drivers behind me.

I left it off for about 10 miles and tried again. This time it warned me it needed to move from my center lane to the right lane in preparation for taking the exit. We had about a mile before the exit and there was another car in the right lane next to me. My car hits the brakes and aggressively slows from 75 to about 40 mph before I decided to take over. I figured it would make a gradual speed reduction to fall in behind that traffic. Nope.

Finally I tried it on the city street and whenever a light turned red, this car would wait until the last second and aggressively brake so as to not rear-end the car stopped in front of us. If they moved forward and had to slow for traffic, my car would wait for a gap and rapidly accelerate just to slam on the brakes.

Is all of this maybe contributed to the car being five years old and maybe the FSD hardware wasn't as good back then? Maybe this particular loaner car had a malfunctioning component and it wasn't bad enough to throw an error code? I cannot imagine present day Teslas behaving like this with people shelling out $12,000 for such an awful system.

I was tempted to try the Summons feature but I figured that would be pushing my luck.
 

mswlogo

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2018
8,116
7,607
MA, NH
Well I’m sure you are not running FSD Beta that is the ONLY thing that supports traffic lights. Still work in progress and yes that can kill you. But it’s still impressive what it CAN do.

For basic lane keep. Every flavor of AutoPilot has worked fine since 2.5 in 2019. Only thing FSD buys you is the blinker changing lanes.

Some folks use Nav on AutoPilot and Summon etc. I don’t.
 

geordi

Mr Fusion V.1
Jun 14, 2022
83
37
Earth
Holy moley that sounds terrifying. I've seen videos of FSD cars on the highway (which SHOULD be the easiest thing to program for) that completely misunderstand entering a construction zone and manage to drive at full speed into a concrete barrier that is merging into the lane from the side.

Oh, but helpfully it put the hazards on right after the impact.

Hmm..... When I can drive better than the computer, while watching other people play with their phones in traffic and posting on TMC about it.... I think I'll stick with the meatware version.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zalick and BooMan
Actually.. So, have this 2018 M3 LR RWD. I've had the FSDb for roughly two weeks now. And before that, had been running around (first) with EAP, then with the pre-Beta, FSD package. This last is basically EAP with a couple of extra features. As my spouse puts it, this is my hobby. It's cheaper than having a boat or an airplane 😁.

I'm also an engineer who, for a living, figures out what died on complex equipment, with the intent of making sure that that never happens again. And I have a kind of eclectic background for a EE: Lots of down-to-the-silicon hardware design, circuit boards, and lots and lots of software. I've never coded actual neural nets, but, what with a digital signal processing background, knowing about Markov processes and such, I very definitely get the idea.

So, FSDb is all about the testing, not the features. If one wants to chug a couple hundred miles or longer down the road and feel relaxed when one gets to one's destination, FSD is very much the way to go. Not that I use the auto lane change feature on interstates that much (feels a little too risky for me), but the rest is just fine, including going between two interstates via the ramps. And the current FSD (not beta) can do lane keeping and some stop-at-stop-lights stuff, but won't do turns on local roads.

FSDb is not for the weak of heart. The release notes state that the car can and will do the wrong thing at the wrong time; they're not kidding. On average on a 20 mile local road trip I hit that "record" icon anywhere from five to twenty times. Each one of those hits is a "safety" hit. Going down the middle of an unstriped, 35 mph road going up the brow of a hill and not being able to see over it for oncoming traffic. (Locals know to hug the right side of the road - but not FSDb.) Jerkily going through intersections, scaring the bejeezus out of nearby cyclists (that was today). Classifying the danger zones as mild, serious, and critical, I'd guess about 50% mild, 35% serious, and 15% you-gotta-be-kidding-me where, without manual intervention, we're talking about bending metal. Believe me, I look at people pushing baby strollers or with toddlers in tow in a whole new light these days. (Yes, the car came to a halt for the lady with the stroller on the green-light left turn but, given all the errors this car makes on a regular basis, the knuckles on the steering wheel were white and the foot poised over the brake. And it was all very jerky.)

As for all those people who are crazy to get their hands on FSDb, along the lines of, "I paid for it! I want my feature!": be very, very careful what you wish for. My stress levels are loads higher than they were before getting the FSDb.

Now, the chatter about FSDb on these forums is kind of interesting. I've only had the current version, 2022.12.3.20. People who've been testing (emphasis, testing) this and earlier versions do say that various previous versions had smoother turns; or hugged the center line closer on a left turn (something the current version definitely does not do), and so on. It's been stated that each time a new FSDb hits the wall, some features get better, some features get worse. Mm.

But the release notes themselves have an eye-opener in them. One of the things in there was that the car was 41% better on certain types of left turns. Ah, yeah. 41% better. So, what about the other 59% of those types of turns?

On the one hand, I'm very happy that Tesla figured out, what with training and all of the neural network, that they could get a major improvement in a particular feature. And it looks like whoever wrote that felt equally happy and wanted to share.. and maybe alert people for feedback on that topic.

But the goal of FSDb is, well, Full Self Driving. As in Taxi service and that. And I'm watching the car and how it handles things. Nope, the car's not a human. It appears to have some short-term memory. Long term memory, as in, "I remember that screwy intersection from the last time I went through it, I won't make that mistake again!" is Not In Evidence. Or, as I mentioned above: If one scares a student driver with the dangers of approaching the brow of a steep hill in the middle of a road, one typically doesn't have to scare them twice. The car appears to be running on a rules-based approach to chugging down the road. Which is fine.. I suppose. The rules can be very, very complex, for a computer. But car doesn't feel danger, that's a human (or live creature) emotion based upon a zillion years of evolution. That, you know, kind of works pretty well. (Those for whom the internal manifestation of fear/danger didn't work all that well are no longer around to complain: Hello, Darwin.)

So, the real question is: How well, and how fast, is Tesla iterating on FSDb? Take that 41% number. If on every release that feature is improved by 41%, then we get 0.41^N, where N is the number of releases. So, starting from 1.0 (which is lousy, at the beginning), one goes 0.41, 0.168, .0689, .0283, .0116, .00475, 1.98e-3, 7.98e-4, 3.27e-4, and so on. that last one is 0.003%, after 9 releases - and that's not good enough. We want 99.99%, better than a human, or a mass of humans in aggregate.

There's all sorts of things wrong with that math, above. For one thing, there's nothing that says the neural net improvement process can't go from, say, 0.11% to 0.00001% on the next step. Neural nets (and computer algorithms in general) can be decidedly non-linear in that way.

And I'm personally looking at a capability sample size of one. Which is getting into a wider release with Tesla drivers. Remember: At this point in the algorithm cycles, it's all about gathering sample data and processing same for the next FSDb point release, and you gotta figure, it's Tesla requesting the data.

I've got this feeling.. that, with whatever passes for the current techniques, Tesla is not progressing all that fast. Are the people monitoring all this at Tesla confident that they can get a non-beta, FSD out the door in the next year that works? Or are they getting, say, a little desperate? Don't know.

One possibility is that the development crowd at Tesla is betting on the Dojo system. Kind of a hope that, "If only we could train this neural net in the car at 1000X the speed we're currently doing it", all the major stumbling blocks could be fixed. Which may or may not be true, of course. What Tesla is doing is along the lines of pure research, which is defined as the Process of Running Up Alleys to Find Out If They're Blind. Nobody's really done a full FSD before.. so there could always be a stumbling block beyond which it might be near-impossible to get.

Or we could all be pleasantly surprised come December with a smooth-driving, traffic/pedestrian/what-have-you aware car that works like a dream.

At this point, I wouldn't bet either way.

In any case, I'm going to keep on testing the FSDb, not because it lowers my blood pressure or is that capable, but because the data from me and everybody else doing this may just be the push that gets Tesla over the edge.

Finally: As I said above, nobody should get the FSDb if one thinks that THIS is going to let one take one's hands off the wheel and read a book or something while driving from A to B. If you want to help Tesla, sure. If you're really into beta-testing buggy software, sure. But if all one wants to do is get around town with one's sanity intact: Don't bother.
 
Just got FSDb. Am in semi-rural Pa. Thought the system would do better on local roads. Issues below.

My question is …is the poor performance related to eg non-digitized roads in my area (and how do I know if they are/aren’t)? If the system is using local camera view to make decisions, then my 14 year old lab (who is deceased now) would make better decisions. Does anyone know how much a role the cameras play (as opposed to map overlay, server data, etc)? Just trying to understand if my experience is a function of where I live, or the capability of the software and process? Also, is there a setting that will make it “less aggressive” in turns and local road acceleration?

issues thus far:
1. if no lane divider it goes in the middle. Please stay to the right!
2. Turns at stop signs are apoplectic. And with a yoke, actually painful as it flings L/R/L/L/L/R/R/L/R etc. thought it would be smoother.
3. Does not look before it leaps. Actually proceeds with a turn without “inching forward” to actually see the left and right. Really badly. Online videos show much better behavior.
4. Inability to understand speed limit changes when turning onto another road until it has already accelerated (aggressively). Example - 40 mph road, left turn into our development (speed 25 or less). It turns aggressively, speeds up to 40 quickly, and then decelerates to 25, but only after having gone halfway down the street.
5. Icon to send clips to Tesla is buried in the control section - after having to override the car because of a dangerous maneuver, this is to difficult to get to quickly.

definitely a WIP. Happy to test, just a bit disappointed in its performance.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiegels
Do I have full self driving? I didn’t pay for it, yet the specs say I do. It’s a MYLR manufactured in March of 22. I have the “summons” option, and some other self steering settings in the controls.
1655396208736.png
 

DerbyDave

Active Member
Jul 2, 2020
2,726
1,620
Kentucky
Do I have full self driving? I didn’t pay for it, yet the specs say I do. It’s a MYLR manufactured in March of 22. I have the “summons” option, and some other self steering settings in the controls.
No. You have the Capability for Full Self Driving. That means your car has all the required equipment if you add it now. Adding it also adds "Smart Summons" over just regular Summons.
 

strider

Active Member
Oct 20, 2010
4,106
1,974
NE Oklahoma
To answer the OPs question, Yes, FSD is really that bad. Now if you're a nerd like @Tronguy (and I use nerd here on purpose and positively) and want to be an active part of developing the tech and it is interesting to you, then go for it. And your wife is right, it is cheaper than a lot of other hobbies :p

But for anyone who buys it expecting the car to be able to take you from your house to your destination without you having to drive (which is, you know, the definition of Full Self-Driving) within the next 10 years is simply lighting money on fire.

I still get an insane amount of Phantom Braking just on TACC on my 1-month old Model X. My friend with an MY with FSDb took me to lunch the other day. The car tried to turn right on red into the path of a pickup truck doing 50mph (that was the speed limit). If he had not taken over it would not have gone well for us.

It is my opinion that Tesla will need to add and/or reposition cameras and possibly add other sensors in order to get this to actually work. It was clear that while the side-facing cameras work for doing things like lane-changes, they need to be able to look higher up to see approaching cross traffic like in my situation. It just couldn't see the approaching truck and proceeded to turn into the lane. My friend say the truck, was covering the brake, and was waiting to see what it would do. Sure enough it want halfway into the lane before my friend hit the brakes. The truck had to move out of the way and we got a (well-deserved) honk as well.
 
My Refresh S is in the shop (again) and they gave me a 2017 S loaner car. My S doesn't have FSD. I don't drive enough to justify the price, so I didn't want it. The loaner S does have FSD so I decided to see for myself how cool it was and maybe try to justify adding it to my car. The stupid car tried to kill me and piss off other drivers in the short time I allowed it to drive!

First minute of turning on, it phantom-braked from 75 to 45 with nothing around but overhead signs and a bunch of pissed off drivers behind me.

I left it off for about 10 miles and tried again. This time it warned me it needed to move from my center lane to the right lane in preparation for taking the exit. We had about a mile before the exit and there was another car in the right lane next to me. My car hits the brakes and aggressively slows from 75 to about 40 mph before I decided to take over. I figured it would make a gradual speed reduction to fall in behind that traffic. Nope.

Finally I tried it on the city street and whenever a light turned red, this car would wait until the last second and aggressively brake so as to not rear-end the car stopped in front of us. If they moved forward and had to slow for traffic, my car would wait for a gap and rapidly accelerate just to slam on the brakes.

Is all of this maybe contributed to the car being five years old and maybe the FSD hardware wasn't as good back then? Maybe this particular loaner car had a malfunctioning component and it wasn't bad enough to throw an error code? I cannot imagine present day Teslas behaving like this with people shelling out $12,000 for such an awful system.

I was tempted to try the Summons feature but I figured that would be pushing my luck.
Yes, FSD is that bad. Ironically, it is also still one of the best available ADAS systems.
 

DerbyDave

Active Member
Jul 2, 2020
2,726
1,620
Kentucky
Since Smart Summon is a feature of FSD, look at Summon in your app while you are within 200 feet of your Tesla. If it has GPS and allows you to navigate the car from one location to another target, you have Smart Summon and therefore FSD. Since I have only had FSD, I am not aware of the specific different menu choice differences for that, but Smart Summon should be an indicator.
 

Products we're discussing on TMC...

About Us

Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.

Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


SUPPORT TMC
Top