FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[stopcrazypp]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1753437704006820180

He says: "I think we will achieve full self driving (I don't know?) what level you call it four or five". He mumbles the middle part so it's hard to hear.

The Chinese subtitles suggest he said "many" in the middle part.

He doesn't say SAE though or even L5 alone.

 

[JulienW]

He says: "I think we will achieve full self driving (I don't know?) what level you call it four or five". He mumbles the middle part so it's hard to hear.

The Chinese subtitles suggest he said "many" in the middle part.

He doesn't say SAE though or even L5 alone.

(I don't know) = depending on

 

[diplomat33]

He says: "I think we will achieve full self driving (I don't know?) what level you call it four or five". He mumbles the middle part so it's hard to hear.

The Chinese subtitles suggest he said "many" in the middle part.

He doesn't say SAE though or even L5 alone.

He is not sure if FSD would be L4 or L5. But he does refer to it as one of the SAE levels. If he did not believe in the SAE levels, you would expect him to say "I don't believe in the SAE levels" or "We don't think of FSD in terms of the SAE levels". He does not do that. The fact that he refers to FSD as either L4 or L5 by name, clearly shows that he is not ignoring the levels as one poster is alleging.

 

[stopcrazypp]

He is not sure if FSD would be L4 or L5. But he does refer to it as one of the SAE levels. If he did not believe in the SAE levels, you would expect him to say "I don't believe in the SAE levels" or "We don't think of FSD in terms of the SAE levels". He does not do that. The fact that he refers to FSD as either L4 or L5 by name, clearly shows that he is not ignoring the levels as one poster is alleging.

Does he say SAE in that interview? Do you have a link to that part?

I think there was somewhere (an earnings call?) where someone said SAE levels and he didn't correct them, but from memory he didn't say specifically SAE L5 himself in that call either. But maybe there is somewhere where he outright says SAE L5, but the examples posted so far don't appear to be it.

Note saying Level 4 or Level 5 does not automatically mean SAE level 4 or SAE level 5. A lot of people are instead referring to the definition put out by Synopsys (one of the earliest graphics referenced). Even though the article claims it is based on SAE, the definition has significant differences with the actual SAE one (one major one being it defines L4 as geofencing being required, which is not true in actual SAE one; it also says L5 has no human controls, but that's not a differentiator either in SAE):

The 6 Levels of Vehicle Autonomy Explained | Synopsys Automotive

Before merging onto roadways, self-driving cars will have to progress through 6 levels of driver assistance technology advancements. SAE defines 6 levels of driving automation ranging from 0 (fully manual) to 5 (fully autonomous). Learn more.

www.synopsys.com

 

[diplomat33]

Does he say SAE in that interview? Do you have a link to that part?

I think there was somewhere (an earnings call?) where someone said SAE levels and he didn't correct them, but from memory he didn't say specifically SAE L5 himself in that call either. But maybe there is somewhere where he outright says SAE L5, but the examples posted don't appear to be it.

Note saying Level 4 or Level 5 does not automatically mean SAE level 4 or SAE level 5. A lot of people are instead referring to the definition put out by Synopsys (one of the earliest graphics referenced). Even though the article claims it is based on SAE, the definition has significant differences with the actual SAE one (one major one being it defines L4 as geofencing being required, which is not true in actual SAE one):

The 6 Levels of Vehicle Autonomy Explained | Synopsys Automotive

Before merging onto roadways, self-driving cars will have to progress through 6 levels of driver assistance technology advancements. SAE defines 6 levels of driving automation ranging from 0 (fully manual) to 5 (fully autonomous). Learn more.

www.synopsys.com

Those levels by Synopsys are their interpretation of the SAE levels (that chart has several errors in it by the way). They are not different levels. Synopsys just gets it wrong. But they are not proposing a different level system.

And everyone knows that level 4 or 5 refers to the SAE levels. L4/L5 is simply short hand for SAE L4/L5. So it is a real stretch to suggest that Elon is referring to some other levels just because he did not actually say the term "SAE" in front of level 4.

 

[JulienW]

Does he say SAE in that interview? Do you have a link to that part?...

Yea unless Elon says “Society of Automotive Engineers International J3016-202104 Level 5 Full Driving Automation” it doesn’t count.

 

[diplomat33]

The fact is that there is only one recognized system of classification for autonomous driving that refers to level 2, 3, 4, 5. It is the SAE system. So when people say L4 or L5, they are referring to the SAE level 4, 5. It just shorter to say L5 than SAE L5. The notion that unless Elon actually spells out SAE, he might be referring to some other L4 or L5, is ridiculous.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Those levels by Synopsys are their interpretation of the SAE levels (that chart has several errors in it by the way). They are not different levels. Synopsys just gets it wrong. But they are not proposing a different level system.

And everyone knows that level 4 or 5 refers to the SAE levels. L4/L5 is simply short hand for SAE L4/L5. So it is a real stretch to suggest that Elon is referring to some other levels just because he did not actually say the term "SAE" in front of level 4.

But just like how multiple people argued endlessly in this very thread about something as simple as the word "drive", whether he means SAE Level 5 or just "Level 5" has a major impact on what is to be expected in the actual feature.

For example level 5 may be interpreted as level 4 with no geofencing from the above graph (given level 4 "requires" geofencing).

 

[JulienW]

.....from the above graph (given level 4 "requires" geofencing).

L4 doesn't require geofencing. Its ODD can be limited in other ways.

EDIT: Here is the SAE chart:

Here is a better synopsis chart:

Just for kicks here is terminology:

 

[diplomat33]

But just like how multiple people argued endlessly in this very thread about something as simple as the word "drive", whether he means SAE Level 5 or just "Level 5" has a major impact on what is to be expected in the actual feature.

I think you are being silly. "SAE level 5" and "level 5" are the same thing. "Level 5" is simply the shorter version of "SAE level 5". So when Elon says "level 5", he is referring to the SAE level 5. And just because some people are confused by the SAE levels, does not mean that somehow, Elon might be referring to a different level 5. Heck, if we are going to say that words don't mean what they actually mean because some people might use the words wrong, we are all in trouble.

For example level 5 may be interpreted as level 4 with no geofencing from the above graph (given level 4 "requires" geofencing).

That graph is wrong. So no, level 5 cannot be interpreted as level 4 with no geofencing. That graph should not be trusted.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The fact is that there is only one recognized system of classification for autonomous driving that refers to level 2, 3, 4, 5. It is the SAE system. So when people say L4 or L5, they are referring to the SAE level 4, 5. It just shorter to say L5 than SAE L5. The notion that unless Elon actually spells out SAE, he might be referring to some other L4 or L5, is ridiculous.

Nope there is more than one system. I still remember when the NHTSA system was in use. Here's a document that defines it, it defines 5 levels
Level 0 – No-Automation
Level 1 – Function-specific Automation
Level 2 - Combined Function Automation
Level 3 - Limited Self-Driving Automation
Level 4 - Full Self-Driving Automation (Level 4)
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.gov/files/documents/automated_vehicles_policy.pdf

There are also an bunch of more colloquial definitions, where essentially it can mean a wide variety of things, as the given article author will just essentially make up what they mean (just like the Synopsys one did and departs significantly from SAE).

 

[powertoold]

During the infamous Autonomy Day, Elon did respond to one of the analysts to say that the end goal is L5 (and doesn't even mention L3/L4 as a goal at all). I don't think Elon himself said L5, but he responded "yes" to the question.

I'm not gonna look through the 2 hrs to find it

During Autonomy Day, Elon also said that geofences are dumb. Not sure if he still thinks that.

I love watching Autonomy Day from time to time. It was peak Elon.

 

[JulienW]

Nope there is more than one system. I still remember when the NHTSA system was in use. Here's a document that defines it, it defines 5 levels
Level 0 – No-Automation
Level 1 – Function-specific Automation
Level 2 - Combined Function Automation
Level 3 - Limited Self-Driving Automation
Level 4 - Full Self-Driving Automation (Level 4)
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.gov/files/documents/automated_vehicles_policy.pdf

There are also an bunch of more colloquial definitions, where essentially it can mean a wide variety of things, as the given article author will just essentially make up what they mean (just like the Synopsys one did and departs significantly from SAE).

That is outdated and before SEA set the standards. Notice the word Preliminary. SAE is the standard now.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I think you are being silly. "SAE level 5" and "level 5" are the same thing. "Level 5" is simply the shorter version of "SAE level 5". So when Elon says "level 5", he is referring to the SAE level 5. And just because some people are confused by the SAE levels, does not mean that somehow, Elon might be referring to a different level 5. Heck, if we are going to say that words don't mean what they actually mean because some people might use the words wrong, we are all in trouble.



That graph is wrong. So no, level 5 cannot be interpreted as level 4 with no geofencing. That graph should not be trusted.

But many people define the levels based on that specific graph, I've seen this happen personally on this forum. They very much do not mean the actual SAE definition when they say a certain "level". That's why I had to add SAE to clarify that I mean the SAE definition specifically.

 

[JulienW]

But many people define the levels based on that specific graph, I've seen this happen personally on this forum. They very much do not mean the actual SAE definition when they say a certain "level". That's why I had to add SAE to clarify that I mean the SAE definition.

 

[diplomat33]

There are also an bunch of more colloquial definitions, where essentially it can mean a wide variety of things, as the given article author will just essentially make up what they mean (just like the Synopsys one did and departs significantly from SAE).

Yes, many people invent their own "levels" or mischaracterize the SAE levels. So is your defense that Elon could be making up his own "level 5" or using "level 5" in a different way than SAE? Again, that seems like a pretty bad argument: "Elon said level 5 but he did not really mean SAE level 5 because he does not understand the SAE levels or is making it up." lol.

 

[diplomat33]

But many people define the levels based on that specific graph, I've seen this happen personally on this forum. They very much do not mean the actual SAE definition when they say a certain "level". That's why I had to add SAE to clarify that I mean the SAE definition.

Ignorance is not a defense. Just because some people misunderstand or mischaracterize the SAE levels, does not mean we just accept bad interpretations of the SAE levels.

 

[Todd Burch]

Before I ban you all, can you take the SAE Level n discussion to another thread. Not pertinent to v12.

Edit: just checked and I can’t ban any of you but my argument still applies.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Ignorance is not a defense. Just because some people misunderstand or mischaracterize the SAE levels, does not mean we just accept bad interpretations of the SAE levels.

But the point is they don't mean the SAE level when they are saying it, so they are not "wrong". There is nothing that requires someone to use the SAE level when they say a certain level. They can use the Synopsys level, they can use the NHTSA level. They aren't "wrong" to use a different level as long as they don't refer to what they are saying as "SAE level". Some of the other definitions are much simpler and easier to understand and the person actually means those specific differentiators.

 

[diplomat33]

But the point is they don't mean the SAE level when they are saying it, so they are not "wrong". There is nothing that requires someone to use the SAE level when they say a certain level. They can use the Synopsys level, they can use the NHTSA level. They aren't "wrong" to use a different level as long as they don't refer to what they are saying as "SAE level". Some of the other definitions are much simpler and easier to understand and the person actually means those specific differentiators.

I disagree. The Synopsys levels are not a different classification system than SAE. Synopsys is simply a bad interpretation of the SAE levels. They do mean the SAE levels. Using the SAE levels wrong is not an acceptable alternative version of the levels. And the NHTSA levels are a pre-SAE version before the SAE formalized the levels. And I've never heard anyone use the NHTSA levels since the SAE system replaced them.