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I am curious if V12 will fix some of the long standing issues I've been having with V11, specifically:
1) Moving over to a right turn lane at the last minute, cutting off other drivers, without using the turn signal
2) Moving over into the suicide lane before the turn only lane and then moving back into the main lane when it realizes it is not in the turn only lane
3) Stopping at railroad crossings when there is no train.
How about 4) moving into any turn lane when it needs to go straight
 
It's crazy how important it is for the car to understand what it can't see. I wonder how they train that now?

Even seems like Waymo has a potential problem with that!

It's interesting. Haven't seen a lot of evidence that anything other than extremely cautious creeping is the solution to this, for now. Humans seem to be a lot better at it in most cases.

Humans sit forward of the B-pillar, and their necks move (and they can lean)- so they can "creep" further visually into an intersection without moving the car than the static B-pillar cams can.
The problem is we don’t have a computer that can infer like a human can. E.g. blind intersection but you see a pedestrian start to cross then suddenly stop while looking where you can’t see. A human sees that and says “probably a car coming, I’ll wait a sec.” FSD sees that and says “human not in path. Creeping forward for visibility.”

The B pilar camera position is not a huge issue, IMO. I’ve measured the actual difference in views and it’s nothing that FSD shouldn’t be able to overcome *if* it’s otherwise working right. I agree with @powertoold - You can bet Tesla has considered this issue more than once.
 
It's crazy how important it is for the car to understand what it can't see. I wonder how they train that now?

Even seems like Waymo has a potential problem with that!

It's interesting. Haven't seen a lot of evidence that anything other than extremely cautious creeping is the solution to this, for now. Humans seem to be a lot better at it in most cases.
I know I've brought this up before but it bares repeating.
Unfortunately the B-Pillar camera requires FSD to make decisions when it cannot see properly. That is just a fact. I'd love Elon to explain how did Tesla apply good first principle thinking when deciding there was an acceptable lack of vision because at this intersection that is exactly the case.

The car is already pulled too far into the crossing street requiring any cars coming to stop and let me out. That happened when I initially started testing. As a human I can avoid this by just leaning far forward avoiding the creep issue.

For now I just cannot use FSD when I leave my house as this is the first turn.

Second image is the same issue. You can only creep out so far until your position becomes dangerous for crossing vehicles.

Left Pillar Camera.jpg



B-Pillar Westford.jpg
 
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I know I've brought this up before but it bares repeating.
Unfortunately the B-Pillar camera requires FSD to make decisions when it cannot see properly. That is just a fact. I'd love Elon to explain how did Tesla apply good first principle thinking when deciding there was an acceptable lack of vision because at this intersection that is exactly the case.

The car is already pulled too far into the crossing street requiring any cars coming to stop and let me out. That happened when I initially started testing. As a human I can avoid this by just leaning far forward avoiding the creep issue.

For now I just cannot use FSD when I leave my house as this is the first turn.

Second image is the same issue. You can only creep out so far until your position becomes dangerous for crossing vehicles.

View attachment 1016328


View attachment 1016334
As a human you can’t totally avoid that - this is simply a horribly designed intersection and an accident waiting to happen. I’ve measured the difference in my car - when I’m sitting in a normal driving position it’s 4-6 inches max. When I lean forward it’s just over a foot. that means the total difference from getting the ‘same’ view is a foot.

Something people never consider - the position of the B pillar camera protects it from most road spray, dirt, etc by being further back and on a side-facing surface.. A camera placed on the A pillar would be much more susceptible to those issues and couldn’t be placed side facing without obstructing the driver’s view.
 
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A new Whole Mars Catalog drive of about 10 minutes.

1. Passing through that community gate again.
2. An interaction with traffic cones closing a lane combined with a car coming up quickly in the lane with right of way.
3. Hesitant right turn on red.
4. Encountering a series of non-standard stop signs. The car stops at three and rolls two.

No interesting parking attempt at the end of the drive. It just stops.
 
A new Whole Mars Catalog drive of about 10 minutes.

1. Passing through that community gate again.
2. An interaction with traffic cones closing a lane combined with a car coming up quickly in the lane with right of way.
3. Hesitant right turn on red.
4. Encountering a series of non-standard stop signs. The car stops at three and rolls two.

No interesting parking attempt at the end of the drive. It just stops.
I’m curious as to whether those stop signs are actually legal
 
As a human you can’t totally avoid that - this is simply a horribly designed intersection and an accident waiting to happen. I’ve measured the difference in my car - when I’m sitting in a normal driving position it’s 4-6 inches max. When I lean forward it’s just over a foot. that means the total difference from getting the ‘same’ view is a foot.

Something people never consider - the position of the B pillar camera protects it from most road spray, dirt, etc by being further back and on a side-facing surface.. A camera placed on the A pillar would be much more susceptible to those issues and couldn’t be placed side facing without obstructing the driver’s view.
First, I absolutely can avoid a safety problem with both of these intersections since I do that every day by leaning way forward. That gives me another 2+ feet of vision. I just measured from the B-pillar camera to the top of the steering wheel which I absolutely do lean forward to and that is 30". You refer to a normal driving position but these intersections require you to lean as far forward as possible which humans often do. A normal driving position is useless if you want to make a safe turn decision.

Road spray would be addressed by adding cameras or improving the wide angle view of the existing front cameras at the top of the wind shield.
 
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I’m curious as to whether those stop signs are actually legal
The federal Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD) is the standard, and while individual states can come up with their own regulations for how those signs get put in, etc, the signs themselves must follow the standard.

From the standard: "Portable or part-time STOP signs shall not be used except for emergency and temporary traffic control zone purposes."

From the markings on the road, I'd say that those signs don't qualify. I wonder why they did it that way. Aesthetics?
 
I know I've brought this up before but it bares repeating.
Unfortunately the B-Pillar camera requires FSD to make decisions when it cannot see properly. That is just a fact. I'd love Elon to explain how did Tesla apply good first principle thinking when deciding there was an acceptable lack of vision because at this intersection that is exactly the case.

The car is already pulled too far into the crossing street requiring any cars coming to stop and let me out. That happened when I initially started testing. As a human I can avoid this by just leaning far forward avoiding the creep issue.

For now I just cannot use FSD when I leave my house as this is the first turn.

Second image is the same issue. You can only creep out so far until your position becomes dangerous for crossing vehicles.

View attachment 1016328


View attachment 1016334
Yeah these situations I don’t care about. I’m talking about the typical situation where visibility is not an issue.

Stop at the line, rapidly creep to position of visibility without entering traffic, without multiple creeps, go.

This is what FSD does not do (see video at 10-11 seconds and around 18 seconds - just one example, but any FSD user is familiar with the dissatisfying dithering dance - which persists in v12 - and has nothing to do with stopping at the stop line).
 
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Yeah these situations I don’t care about. I’m talking about the typical situation where visibility is not an issue.

Stop at the line, rapidly creep to position of visibility without entering traffic, without multiple creeps, go.

This is what FSD does not do (see video at 10-11 seconds and around 18 seconds - just one example, but any FSD user is familiar with the dissatisfying dithering dance - which persists in v12 - and has nothing to do with stopping at the stop line).
That's not a safety issue though that makes or breaks higher levels of autonomy, just an annoyance.

People are talking instead about what is absolutely required to safely drive the car. Basically if the angled B-piller move is sufficiently safe or if cameras that are further forward are required.
 
Yeah these situations I don’t care about. I’m talking about the typical situation where visibility is not an issue.

Stop at the line, rapidly creep to position of visibility without entering traffic, without multiple creeps, go.

This is what FSD does not do (see video at 10-11 seconds and around 18 seconds - just one example, but any FSD user is familiar with the dissatisfying dithering dance - which persists in v12 - and has nothing to do with stopping at the stop line).
I do agree with your comment on the dithering dance. Drives me bonkers.

So you don't care about intersections where FSD has to be turned off because it cannot see traffic having crept out as far as safely positive? Tesla should care if it ever wants robotaxi to take those tuns safely. Today it can't.
 
All the special cases, and their interactions? C++ ain't as bad as C in terms of exponential maintenance complexity, but it certainly has its limits!
As a retired programmer, I would dispute that. Admittedly my last professional work in C++ was over a decade ago. Has the standard template library become more useful? Even if so, I don't see how it can ever be anything more than object-oriented grammar tacked on top of a very old procedural language.
 
I've long expressed disappointment in the choice of camera positions that Tesla adopted (or perhaps inherited from the MobilEye platform that was conceived for a more highway-centric autopilot).

However, wishing for an improvement is not the same as saying that the exist setup is unworkable or highly dangerous.

The way I've looked at this is that
  • it's predictably difficult to equal or exceed human safety levels, when no one yet knows how to achieve human level inference in the AI.
  • But, a major emphasis can be placed on areas where it's already known how to achieve superhuman performance at low cost. Driving is a very complex task, and there isn't only one set of weighted talents that can conquer it.
So it's very sensible to take maximum advantage of the available technology, within the severe cost constraints of volume production. Cameras that can see all around and that can see better in the dark, a computer that never stops paying attention, large crowdsourced databases that ideally respond to short, medium and long-term route changes.

Some of these exist and are helping, others are falling short or could have been better. Specifically, some argue that the B-pillar location is not that much of a disadvantage compared to a human view, not worse than a vehicle with a very long hood, etc., but I think the larger point is that it could have been placed up front to look around corners and look past traffic, and to help with near-field obstacles - all better than a human in almost any vehicle. And camera Field-of-View geometry is is just one example of the superhuman advantages that could have been had for cheap, helping to offset the lack of human-level inference.

What other things besides better camera FOV coverage? Relatively inexpensive camera auto-cleaning, easier owner access to keep the interior windshield clean over the important front cameras, inexpensive night-vision (near-IR) illumination within the existing lamp and camera housings, a couple of cheap external microphones providing all kinds of potential benefits to safety and to Robotaxi capability. The BOM cost for these suggestions isn't zero, but it's probably less than the cost of the abandoned UslSS.

So in summary, I think the point isn't just isolated arguments about which specific edge cases might benefit from specific hardware changes. The design philosophy should be to extract all the possible benefits from inexpensive hardware, let the NN process those inputs with minimal guesswork, and let it devote more cycles to the unavoidably harder decisions.
 
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