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I know it's harsh, but I don't know why Nissan et al tried to bring a Japanese standard here when UK was already going down the route of AC. I'd rather have 44kW in thousands of places than 50kW in a handful going forward. I can only assume that they thought time to market was more important than long term compatibility. If CHAdeMO was cost effective, I'm sure Dale Vince and others would be installing it at the motorway service stations.
Norbert
TSLA will win
Again this statement would *appear* to imply that AC would better replace DC, which, again, is not the case, not even for Mennekes which uses DC at the levels at which things get interesting (for Tesla and any other future long-range EV). At those levels DC can be expected, at least at this point in time, to be less expensive, as the number of DC chargers will be much smaller than the number of EVs, and so it is better to avoid cost raising the price of EVs themselves, which are already expensive enough. This can be said since there is no other reason Mennekes would use DC for fast-charging.
Norbert
TSLA will win
The same could be said about 44 kW AC vs 100 kW DC. The truly forward looking thing would be to develop and install 100+ kW DC chargers, and to define the standard for these early, which Europe still hasn't done yet. I'm confident we will eventually have a sufficient distribution of 100+ kW DC chargers, be able to reduce the cost significantly also by increasing the market for them, and in spite of the current lack of progress, it seems the US may get there sooner (at least to 90 kW SAE DC, by not extending AC so far). AC is a temporary distraction from parties that have other interests than building EVs which can compete with ICEs on all levels.
I've got to agree... while I can easily imagine 3 Phase being deployed TODAY I cannot see anyone financing DC unless it has some other purpose (such as at Nissan dealers who require it for charging cars after sales/servicing).
I 90% disagree. AC is what you use to get blanket coverage of a still pretty useful charging power. I can go and by a dumb 44kW AC outlet for £80. It's a lot easier to get a hotel or restaurateur to install that at this stage in the EV market than a £25k DC charger.
Norbert
TSLA will win
It all depends on the point in time you are examining. "At this stage", no existing EV can use 44 kW Mennekes. Do you think the current Roadster will be retrofitted for 44 kW? There may be a period of time where that can be made to be true (by Peugot?), but then DC chargers will take over except for over-night charging, where 22 kW would be enough. You won't need chargers with more than 22 kW at every street corner. But you will want fast charging with 100+ kW for long trips, and I'd rather we get to *that* point soon.
I absolutely don't disagree that there is a market and need for 100kW chargers and I think you can make a business case for 250kW charging stations on motorways even in the scenario where 90% of charging is done at home. I think Tesla should take the lead on this when the Model S arrives and install in a few key locations.
But that ignores a whole layer of three phase charging at the next level down that is spreading across Europe. Three phase is much easier to integrate into existing commercial premises. We found that much trying to find 70A on one phase in the UK network. There are plenty of examples where you might want to charge at a medium-high rate on a day trip at a destination.
At the end of the day, the European grid is architected differently to the one in the US and it would benefit manufacturers of high capacity / fast charging EVs to take that into account.
Norbert
TSLA will win
No, it doesn't ignore that since I'm not disputing the value of 3-phase. I'm saying that AC does not obsolete DC, and that DC is the decisive charging method for Model S and forward.
By the way, lots of good comments here:
Growing EV Industry Still Divided Over DC Charging | PluginCars.com
Growing EV Industry Still Divided Over DC Charging | PluginCars.com
Now you're selective quoting me - because I said up thread that it should have 100 kW DC *in addition to* 44kW AC in Europe.
Nobody is saying that AC obsoletes all DC. However given the choice between cheap, ubiquitous 44kW AC and expensive 50kW DC, then the 50kW DC loses.
Norbert
TSLA will win
I just pointed out that I'm not ignoring the value of 3-phase. If 3-phase 44kW can be added to the Model S cheaply, then Tesla will surely do so.
I see 50 kW DC as a step towards 100 kW DC, also in terms of developing the technology and thereby reducing its cost. 44 kW 3-phase doesn't seem to be such a step, just like the Volt, to me, is less of a step than the Leaf.
Norbert
TSLA will win
A DC network isn't hugely expensive, even though each single one has a certain cost (I think Nissan got it down to currently $11k for a 50 KW charger, from about $100k from some US vendors a few years ago).
It was possible in Japan, it will be possible elsewhere. It seems a minor effort on the scale of things at stake.
Norbert
TSLA will win
For comparison: Cost of an oil tanker: $40 million to $120 million, depending on size. So one oil tanker would pay for about 5000 fast chargers, more than enough for the UK.If we go up to 100 kW, probably still more than a 1000, and still more than enough. 
Not sure how many oil tankers there are, though. Or how many refineries, and what they cost.
Not sure how many oil tankers there are, though. Or how many refineries, and what they cost.
SByer
'08 #383
I tried to find the capital cost of a gas station, but couldn't find anything solid. It looked like at least $1M?
Norbert
TSLA will win
A quick search showed for-sale gas stations more or less from about $500k to $2 million (with convenience store). Probably a new one would be more, since the total number seems to continuously decline (about 120,000 left in the US), which surely drives the price down.
It seems one doesn't need to buy real estate for fast-chargers, since there are enough locations with parking lots that would see a fast charger as an upgrade to these parking lots. According to a recent figure from Tesla, the cost for a fast charger installation would be about $25k. So if we stick with $1 million for a gas station, that would be 40 fast chargers per gas station. Plenty for a Seattle - San Diego connection.
you still haven't said who is going to pay for this.... the reason we don't see people rushing to install DC is because the business case is poor...
Let me give you a real world example... this week ZCW has agreed to donate 5 Charging Stations to Hotels in the UK with a mixture of our 45A (1 x BS1363 13A "UK", 1 x IEC 60309 32A "Commando") and 77A (1 x BS1363 13A "UK", 2 x IEC 60309 32A "Commando") 1 Phase models. The trivial installation cost is being paid for by the hotels and is often met from the maintenance or marketing budgets. In many cases it would be possible to install 3 Phase at these locations with no push back from the Hotels. The time from contact to installation is typically 1 to 4 weeks (our record is just under 24 hours). Once installed the site can simultaneously charge 2 or 3 vehicles. I can see this model repeated across the whole of the UK until every Hotel/B&B/Pub/Restaurant with car parking has EV charging...
Compare this scenario with your $11K DC Charger (plus installation)... nobody is going to justify that expense...
Here's the reality of 32A and greater AC charging in the UK today (expect the number of Charging Stations to grow rapidly now);
http://www.zerocarbonworld.org/charging-station-map
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Norbert
TSLA will win
It seems that the business case for DC fast chargers is very different at this point. Japan currently has the highest density of chargers, and as far as I know, perhaps about half of the chargers have been paid for by Nissan, and the other half, I think, mostly by the utility company which is promoting CHAdeMO.
The UK might be the country with the next most DC fast chargers, more than 20 (although I have no idea whether this map is complete and up-to-date) : LEAF fast charge locations - Google Maps
(I found it here: My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - UK L3 charger status (Google maps) )
These are probably all Nissan dealers (which unfortunately means that they are accessible only during business hours).
(It seems your list has about 40 entries, so DC chargers in the UK are about half as many.)
At this very early point, I think Nissan has not yet sold 1000 Leafs in the UK, maybe about 500. This means the expense is about $500 per EV sold so far. Already worth it? I don't know, but while requiring an initial investment, I'd expect this ratio to improve slowly, over time, by at least an order of magnitude.
Most DC fast chargers probably won't be used very much for a quite a while, until there is a much larger numbers of EVs. Even then, I'm not sure if the business case could be meaningfully based on actual use (without attaching a huge price per kWh of electricity used). It seems approaches would be much better where the cost can be divided by the number of EVs, or EV owners, and be seen in relation to the EV purchase price, the basic idea being to share the cost among EVs sold or purchased.
Leafs sold in the US now number about 5000, with the most being sold in California. The reservation list for the Model S (which requires a deposit of $5000) will soon be 5000 in the US alone. It seems that at some point not too distant in the future, 2012 or 2013, California will have 10,000 EVs which can use the same charger type. With Tesla's figure of about $25k per installation, installing 100 DC fast chargers would, at that point, require an investment of $250 per EV. Of course, we are all hoping that it won't take long until the numbers of EVs sold is much higher, but this seems a very realistic number, and 100 DC fast chargers would already give a good amount of coverage along several main routes.
Perhaps in 1-3 years there could be even an organization where members can offer to donate for chargers at specific locations, and once there are enough, this organization will buy and install them.
And perhaps later-on, other (future) members using these chargers will contribute to paying back a portion of this investment. Or so.
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