Thats the opposite side of EV. With that little battery capacity like Nissan leaf or the iMiev, your are very depending on a working and dense infrastructure based on DC. With faster AC-onboard charger your are less depend. You charge where you are and as long as you can.
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a 1750 mile trip around the UK in a Leaf is expected to take place in September...
"I want to take my Nissan Leaf around Britain. I have to use existing charging infrastructure so it makes sense to visit all the Nissan Leaf dealers where the majority of fast chargers currently are."
http://mynissanleafstory.blogspot.com/2011/08/1750-miles-in-10-days-nissan-leaf.html
while I have no concerns about the reliability of the ZCW Charging Stations that are being used on the trip, I will be very surprised if all of the DC Chargers are working and think this will generate very negative mainstream press if the trip fails...
fully agree and we have postponed the purchase of Leaf's for my Company's until the 2013 model arrives with improved AC Charging that allows reasonable opportunity charging (something I'm doing today at 32A during a company meeting at a hotel).
i am going to accompany TRON on his challenge "to go east". its really boring to charge on a 32A socket and you know, you could cut charging time to a third if you could do 3-phase charging or at least to half the time if you could convert 3-phase to single phase, high current. Its not the problem through the night, there we can fill up from empty to full within 8hour on 32A, but on a daybreak - you only can do an extended sightseeing, while charging. Therefore you go quite slow, enjoying the ride, get new distance record or new "lowest consumption records" to reach the next hotel where you can have the next full charge through the night.
P.S. It's not just Europe that has domestic 3 phase. The feed to my house in Hong Kong is 3x400amp. Limit is the circuit breaker, meter and MCB.
I used to have 3x60Amp for that, and recently upgraded to 3x150amp to be able to install a 70amp Tesla HPC on one of the phases - not ideal. Something like 3x16amp could easily have been done without upgrade and would have been more balanced to (easier on) the grid,
This is residential. There are about twenty houses around me, and they all have individual 3x400amp feeds. High rise apartments here are usually 3x60amp.
I used to have 3x60Amp for that, and recently upgraded to 3x150amp to be able to install a 70amp Tesla HPC on one of the phases - not ideal. Something like 3x16amp could easily have been done without upgrade and would have been more balanced to (easier on) the grid,
This is residential. There are about twenty houses around me, and they all have individual 3x400amp feeds. High rise apartments here are usually 3x60amp.
Ok, this is what I've learned tonight from the Model S event at the factory.
As you might have seen in other threads there is going to be a new, Tesla-only connector for charging a Model S, no standard J1772 or "Mennekes" connector.
I've poked around a bit about the three-phase charging and it will NOT be available at this time. I stressed it enough to the power-train designer (forgot his name) that as a European lack of three-phase could really be a dealbreaker.
I absolutely love the Model S! It's a gorgeous vehicle with so many goodies and stuff, I really, really, really like it, but the lack of 3-phase gave the event a bit of a bad taste for me (personally).
The feeling I got is that Tesla still believes in their own propriety connector and charging at home. The argument for not having 3-phase support in the car was "The battery is so big, you don't need to charge that much", rubbish to me..
Anyway, the connector they've come up with will handle AC and DC over the same connector and pins, they said nothing currently available could do that. I pointed him to Mennekes and he turned away from that.
I tried to stress him that lacking three-phase you'll be limited to 16A (80%) or 32A (20%) most of the time. With that huge 90kWh battery that simply sucks. Charging times of about 15 hours on 32A.
I didn't get a promise from him, but after talking for a while he said "We'll come up with something that works, we have more then a year to go", we shook hands that and I left.
The current status is that the Model S does currently not have 3-phase support, it does however support DC. With a converter it should be able to connect to CHaDEMO chargers.
They will look into the three-phase charging again and come up with something. I told him it should be portable, not a small DC charger for home, since all European charging stations have three-phase.
I'm really thinking about writing a good letter to Tesla which we should all sign to emphasize it again to them: Europeans don't want three-phase charging, they NEED it
Other than that, I really do like the Model S, what a beautiful car!
As you might have seen in other threads there is going to be a new, Tesla-only connector for charging a Model S, no standard J1772 or "Mennekes" connector.
I've poked around a bit about the three-phase charging and it will NOT be available at this time. I stressed it enough to the power-train designer (forgot his name) that as a European lack of three-phase could really be a dealbreaker.
I absolutely love the Model S! It's a gorgeous vehicle with so many goodies and stuff, I really, really, really like it, but the lack of 3-phase gave the event a bit of a bad taste for me (personally).
The feeling I got is that Tesla still believes in their own propriety connector and charging at home. The argument for not having 3-phase support in the car was "The battery is so big, you don't need to charge that much", rubbish to me..
Anyway, the connector they've come up with will handle AC and DC over the same connector and pins, they said nothing currently available could do that. I pointed him to Mennekes and he turned away from that.
I tried to stress him that lacking three-phase you'll be limited to 16A (80%) or 32A (20%) most of the time. With that huge 90kWh battery that simply sucks. Charging times of about 15 hours on 32A.
I didn't get a promise from him, but after talking for a while he said "We'll come up with something that works, we have more then a year to go", we shook hands that and I left.
The current status is that the Model S does currently not have 3-phase support, it does however support DC. With a converter it should be able to connect to CHaDEMO chargers.
They will look into the three-phase charging again and come up with something. I told him it should be portable, not a small DC charger for home, since all European charging stations have three-phase.
I'm really thinking about writing a good letter to Tesla which we should all sign to emphasize it again to them: Europeans don't want three-phase charging, they NEED it
Other than that, I really do like the Model S, what a beautiful car!
Some might. I don't care about it, no three-phase charging stations exist in Norway and 16A single phase is enough for home charging for us. CHAdeMO is a must though, did they promise CHAdeMO would work or is that your guess ? Lack of CHAdeMO charging would be a definite deal breaker for me, without it the Leaf will have the longer range in a day and be more suited to road trips...
No plans so far at least. Everything that is getting installed now is either 16A single phase or CHAdeMO. Most of the country does not have access to 400V three-phase either, just 230V three-phase which probably won't be supported by the car manufacturers as only Norway and Albania use that system (IT distribution grid, not TN like the rest of Europe).
Adm
Active Member
Yeah, I guess the answer to the question posed by this thread title is "single phase for now".
I have to say that the lack of 3 phase support seems short sighted and I suppose US centric. Being limited to 16A at home to charge a 90kWh pack would be just nuts.
I have to say that the lack of 3 phase support seems short sighted and I suppose US centric. Being limited to 16A at home to charge a 90kWh pack would be just nuts.
Do keep in mind that Tesla has a lot of data from habits of Roadster owners now. I think they alluded to the fact that most charging would be done overnight, and they have some idea how far people will drive their vehicles daily. If they really think they can get Tesla standard DC fast charge in "all the right places" for anyone traveling longer distances, then their approach might work. You can see that Nissan picked a similar model for the Leaf (16A AC for routine home charging, and CHAdeMO fast DC for longer trips.)
As we have been seeing, the public infrastructure can be a "chicken and egg" sort of problem. If Tesla have shied away from CHAdeMO or the new SAE DC as their preferred fast charge connection, then they would likely need to get started ahead of customer deliveries on the high speed DC charger deployments. Those things can take time with permits, construction, etc. As US Leaf owners can attest, releasing the cars first with the expectation of a parallel public DC fast charge network deployment is frustrating for the early customers who get stuck waiting for the high speed chargers to arrive.
Given lack of available locations, parking, funding, and other reasons that would encourage standardized infrastructure, I am fairly disappointed that we already have multiple standards for DC fast charging coming out to compete with each other. The infamous "beta vs VHS" analogy. I guess we go back to the mention of the combo machines that exist during transitions (e.g.: beta+VHS player machine, DVD+VHS machine). Maybe the DC charger companies will have to release stations that have CHAdeMO & SAE & Tesla plugs all at the same parking spot? The CHAdeMO and SAE DC plugs are fairly big. Do you really want to carry an adapter from one of those to Tesla connector whenever you take a long drive?
I would have to assume that Tesla thinks they will convince the world to adopt use of their connector for high speed DC, and not some big adapters.
As we have been seeing, the public infrastructure can be a "chicken and egg" sort of problem. If Tesla have shied away from CHAdeMO or the new SAE DC as their preferred fast charge connection, then they would likely need to get started ahead of customer deliveries on the high speed DC charger deployments. Those things can take time with permits, construction, etc. As US Leaf owners can attest, releasing the cars first with the expectation of a parallel public DC fast charge network deployment is frustrating for the early customers who get stuck waiting for the high speed chargers to arrive.
Given lack of available locations, parking, funding, and other reasons that would encourage standardized infrastructure, I am fairly disappointed that we already have multiple standards for DC fast charging coming out to compete with each other. The infamous "beta vs VHS" analogy. I guess we go back to the mention of the combo machines that exist during transitions (e.g.: beta+VHS player machine, DVD+VHS machine). Maybe the DC charger companies will have to release stations that have CHAdeMO & SAE & Tesla plugs all at the same parking spot? The CHAdeMO and SAE DC plugs are fairly big. Do you really want to carry an adapter from one of those to Tesla connector whenever you take a long drive?
I would have to assume that Tesla thinks they will convince the world to adopt use of their connector for high speed DC, and not some big adapters.
While the Model S as a whole is awesome, the proprietary connector and lack of 3-phase support is very disappointing.
Tesla's approach of providing one 10 kW on-board charger standard, and two 10 kW chargers as a option, sets them up nicely to offer three 10 kW onboard chargers in Europe (US fleet and business owners also could us this with commercial 3-phase outlets). I'm pretty sure they could connect one charger to each phase, and 30 kW, compatible with many European charge points, would be a very nice improvement over what is possible with the Roadster.
However, the proprietary connector can't support 3-phase, and it is propritary! This requires everyone to use an adaptor of some kind, and Tesla chargers will be useless for other cars.
Just being able to use a standard J1772 charger directly is much more elegant than even a small adaptor. In Europe this may not be so bad, since sockets are used at charge points, and EV owners carry their own charging cables. Tesla owners can just carry a propritary-to-Mennekiess cable, but can only draw from one phase. If only the proprietary connector could handle 3-phase, but it can't!
Given this mess, what can be done? Best would be for Tesla to offer Mennekes connector and 3x10kW chargers for Europe, and option for J1772 connector in US (without adaptors). Better yet is a standard J1772 connector in US, with the proprietary connector for fast charging. I wouldn't mind using a Tesla-to-ChadeMo adaptor for fast charging, since this would be infrequent. Using an adaptor every day is a PIA, and I don't want a Tesla proprietary charger at home, since it won't work with my other cars.
GSP
Tesla's approach of providing one 10 kW on-board charger standard, and two 10 kW chargers as a option, sets them up nicely to offer three 10 kW onboard chargers in Europe (US fleet and business owners also could us this with commercial 3-phase outlets). I'm pretty sure they could connect one charger to each phase, and 30 kW, compatible with many European charge points, would be a very nice improvement over what is possible with the Roadster.
However, the proprietary connector can't support 3-phase, and it is propritary! This requires everyone to use an adaptor of some kind, and Tesla chargers will be useless for other cars.
Just being able to use a standard J1772 charger directly is much more elegant than even a small adaptor. In Europe this may not be so bad, since sockets are used at charge points, and EV owners carry their own charging cables. Tesla owners can just carry a propritary-to-Mennekiess cable, but can only draw from one phase. If only the proprietary connector could handle 3-phase, but it can't!
Given this mess, what can be done? Best would be for Tesla to offer Mennekes connector and 3x10kW chargers for Europe, and option for J1772 connector in US (without adaptors). Better yet is a standard J1772 connector in US, with the proprietary connector for fast charging. I wouldn't mind using a Tesla-to-ChadeMo adaptor for fast charging, since this would be infrequent. Using an adaptor every day is a PIA, and I don't want a Tesla proprietary charger at home, since it won't work with my other cars.
GSP
It will be interesting to see if Tesla releases all the specifications into the public domain, and tries to convince SAE, IEEE, ISO to publish design standards, and to convince other firms to adopt it.
Step one is up to Tesla alone. Steps two and three seem less likely. This looks like IBM's micro channel PS/2 bus, and we know how that turned out.
GSP
Do we know for sure that European models are getting this connector? There will be a multitude of other changes, why not a different connector?
Someone there said something like the following for Roadster charging stats: 20% 120v, 70+% < 40amps, leaving <10% for anything greater than 10kW. Which is why the Model S will likely come standard with ONE on-board 10kW unit (for all those using UMC) and you'd need to get another one to support the 80-amp HPC.
Those 10 kW units weigh about 30 pounds each apparently.
Those 10 kW units weigh about 30 pounds each apparently.
As mention much earlier (with explanation in quotations, please jump back if curios):
one suggestion was:
3 separate chargers require much more (heavy, costly, inefficient, and bulky) components than one charger taking 3phase input for the reasons quoted by Eberhard. So I doubt this is the best way to go.
The good thing is that the Tesla power train already deals with 400V 3phase AV. The PEM converts 375V 20kw 3phase AC to DC when braking regen. The 20kW figure was mentioned by one of Tesla's drivers giving test rides at the Oct 1st event.
Is there a reason Tesla can't run 400V 32A 3phase though the PEM? Well, upgrade to 64A and it will make full use of Mennekes' capabilities!
Quoting Roadsters usually taking no more than 8kW is just silly. In Europe you have to go to lengths getting allowed to draw more than 32A from one phase (240V) in residential area. And in Hotels you stay over night. If the Roadster had 3phase support and a Mennekes port, I am pretty sure Tesla would find many more AC high speed chargings (road trips) in the logs!
A fast charging DC infrastructure is not only hindered by the initial cost of roll out, but even more by the continued effort to maintain & repair these. Vehicle on board technology has it's limits, but it gets maintained (and eventually updated) by the vehicle owner!
Sigh. Long post, short conclusion: Wido, count me in.
one suggestion was:
3 separate chargers require much more (heavy, costly, inefficient, and bulky) components than one charger taking 3phase input for the reasons quoted by Eberhard. So I doubt this is the best way to go.
The good thing is that the Tesla power train already deals with 400V 3phase AV. The PEM converts 375V 20kw 3phase AC to DC when braking regen. The 20kW figure was mentioned by one of Tesla's drivers giving test rides at the Oct 1st event.
Is there a reason Tesla can't run 400V 32A 3phase though the PEM? Well, upgrade to 64A and it will make full use of Mennekes' capabilities!
Quoting Roadsters usually taking no more than 8kW is just silly. In Europe you have to go to lengths getting allowed to draw more than 32A from one phase (240V) in residential area. And in Hotels you stay over night. If the Roadster had 3phase support and a Mennekes port, I am pretty sure Tesla would find many more AC high speed chargings (road trips) in the logs!
A fast charging DC infrastructure is not only hindered by the initial cost of roll out, but even more by the continued effort to maintain & repair these. Vehicle on board technology has it's limits, but it gets maintained (and eventually updated) by the vehicle owner!
Sigh. Long post, short conclusion: Wido, count me in.
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