Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase ?

[Kevin Sharpe]

These are probably all Nissan dealers (which unfortunately means that they are accessible only during business hours).

these are at Nissan dealers and are being increasingly used for Charging Leafs during sales/servicing. As we move forward these will simply become unavailable to people who wish to turn up and charge. We have repeatedly asked Nisan in the UK to support 24/7 access to chargers at useful locations such as motorway service stations.... the last response from them was that this is not their responsibility... I suspect the UK will install fewer than 10 public DC Fast chargers before government financial support ends.

It seems your list has about 40 entries, so DC chargers in the UK are about half as many.

Today we have about 40 sites in the UK that offer 32A or greater AC charging. In 12 months time I expect that to exceed 1000 sites with thousands more supporting 13A. Included in this will be some 3 Phase. Much of this infrastructure will be achieved without government financial support.

I understand the math used in your argument but I do not see anyone prepared to finance DC Fast Chargers in the UK today (excluding Nissan dealers who require them for Leaf sales/servicing). As we move forward with longer range cars (charged at home/work) and 3 Phase, then I see even less reason for deploying DC Charging except at very high power levels at key motorway service stations.

 

[vfx]

So the CHAdeMO ends up as useful as a Tesla connector. The pain of early adoption.

 

[Norbert]

these are at Nissan dealers and are being increasingly used for Charging Leafs during sales/servicing. As we move forward these will simply become unavailable to people who wish to turn up and charge.

They will become unavailable only in so far as there will be an increasing number of Leafs being sold and serviced. These new Leafs will provide a basis for new investments. Of course, this will be true for any charger: it will become unavailable in so far as it is being used.

We have repeatedly asked Nisan in the UK to support 24/7 access to chargers at useful locations such as motorway service stations.... the last response from them was that this is not their responsibility... I suspect the UK will install fewer than 10 public DC Fast chargers before government financial support ends.

Are you saying UK government will end support completely? Or specifically for DC fast chargers? BTW, I have not argued via government support, even though I expect a fair amount. Otherwise, I'm not sure what Nissan is up to, except that in the US it also participates in the "EV Project", which intends to install fast chargers, but hasn't so far, and it doesn't seem clear why not, but one expects it will eventually happen.

Today we have about 40 sites in the UK that offer 32A or greater AC charging. In 12 months time I expect that to exceed 1000 sites with thousands more supporting 13A. Included in this will be some 3 Phase. Much of this infrastructure will be achieved without government financial support.

Nothing wrong with that. Of course, especially at hotels, the value of all chargers, including slow chargers, is undisputed.

I understand the math used in your argument but I do not see anyone prepared to finance DC Fast Chargers in the UK today (excluding Nissan dealers who require them for Leaf sales/servicing). As we move forward with longer range cars (charged at home/work) and 3 Phase, then I see even less reason for deploying DC Charging except at very high power levels at key motorway service stations.

You may have understood the math, but didn't respond to the point. The point is that in relation to the purchase price of an EV, the portion needed for an investment in DC fast chargers is less than $500 or even $250. There are many possibilities for organizing this amount to be used for such investments, including the one I mentioned, and the one where a reasonable car manufacturer puts aside this amount of money from each purchase, and then organizes this effort. Tesla seems to have such a plan.

 

[AndrewBissell]

Norbert, you say Tesla seems to have such a plan. Where is the evidence for that? Perhaps I am sceptical due to the lack of a coordinated approach seem with HPC networks, and statements I have heard from Tesla personnel about charging not being Tesla's business.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

They will become unavailable only in so far as there will be an increasing number of Leafs being sold and serviced. These new Leafs will provide a basis for new investments. Of course, this will be true for any charger: it will become unavailable in so far as it is being used.

These are not PUBLIC chargers and as the demand for them increases at the dealer the availability diminishes for casual users. This issue was discussed by Paul Scott in a recent Transport Evolved podcast;

http://www.transportevolved.com/transport-evolved-episode-59-rude-words-backwards

Are you saying UK government will end support completely? Or specifically for DC fast chargers?

The UK Government has stated that going forward it will support home/work charging with limited amounts of network charging. From my discussions with people in the industry it seems unlikely that the original plan for 50 'rapid chargers' will be completed before the Plugged-In Places funds have been spent.

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/making-the-connection-the-plug-in-vehicle-infrastructure-strategy/plug-in-vehicle-infrastructure-strategy.pdf

The good news is that the UK Government has committed to supporting the IEC 62196-2 Type 2 connector (VDE-AR-E 2623-2-2 "Mennekes") which supports 3 Phase...

You may have understood the math, but didn't respond to the point. The point is that in relation to the purchase price of an EV, the portion needed for an investment in DC fast chargers is less than $500 or even $250.

I understand the point but I see little effort from the auto manufacturers to support DC charging networks and shift the costs from the car to the side of the road... trust me, it's been really tough to get them to support low cost AC networks (ask David Peilow).

 

[Norbert]

Norbert, you say Tesla seems to have such a plan. Where is the evidence for that? Perhaps I am sceptical due to the lack of a coordinated approach seem with HPC networks, and statements I have heard from Tesla personnel about charging not being Tesla's business.

The source are public statements by Elon Musk. While he says that the priority at first will be to ramp up production until the waiting list is reduced to a few months, he mentioned that Tesla intends (in the US) to initially invest about $2 million in fast chargers for an estimated installation cost of $25k each. He explained that about 40 will be enough, given the Model S' long battery range, to provide fast chargers along the east and west coast, as well as for a east-west connection.

Furthermore he indicated a willingness (I suppose within limits) to install fast chargers as (and where) customers will need them, initially with free charging, and in case of extensive use, adding a card reader.

IIRC most of this information came from the recent annual shareholder meeting, but also from more informal presentations of Elon Musk. Those statements known to me were discussed on this forum, if you want, I could provide specific pointers.

 

[Norbert]

These are not PUBLIC chargers and as the demand for them increases at the dealer the availability diminishes for casual users. This issue was discussed by Paul Scott in a recent Transport Evolved podcast;

http://www.transportevolved.com/transport-evolved-episode-59-rude-words-backwards

Are you saying your whole statements is based on Paul Scott's (who likes to promote 110V charging) remarks about the dealership he works for in the LA area?

The best I know, US dealerships don't have DC fast chargers in the first place (but there is the "EV Project"). Aside from that there isn't as much of a point in offering Level 2 chargers for public access, the charging speed, 3.3 kW, takes a whole business day for one full charge, so it is not a surprise if they easily become "unavailable".

In any case, the fact remains that Nissan currently does offer fast-chargers for public use in the Uk and in Japan.

The UK Government has stated that going forward it will support home/work charging with limited amounts of network charging. From my discussions with people in the industry it seems unlikely that the original plan for 50 'rapid chargers' will be completed before the Plugged-In Places funds have been spent.

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/making-the-connection-the-plug-in-vehicle-infrastructure-strategy/plug-in-vehicle-infrastructure-strategy.pdf

Section 7 in this document nicely explains the value of fast charging for long trips, and promises financing 50 fast chargers, which I think would already give a good starting coverage for the UK. My understanding is that budget cuts (or limitations) result in a focus on home/work charging (which I agree is the most important), and include cuts for AC charging points ("not at every street corner"). Furthermore, there is general uncertainty about the eventual standard(s) for fast charging, which in the current initial situation easily explains that such projects are difficult. This will eventually be resolved, and apparently the willing ness to finance a certain amount of fast-chargers is there.

I understand the point but I see little effort from the auto manufacturers to support DC charging networks and shift the costs from the car to the side of the road... trust me, it's been really tough to get them to support low cost AC networks (ask David Peilow).

Which auto manufacturers financially support AC networks? Tesla? See my response to Andrew. And Tesla doesn't even have the Model S on the street yet. Nissan still has a long waiting list to work from. None of them have taken the cost for fast-charging into the car. They don't need to "shift", they have already done so.

 

[Lloyd]

Probably the easiest way of doing this (assuming you already have the J1772->Tesla) is to convert your HPC to J1772. The cable costs ~$350 from Avnet. I'll be doing the conversion shortly with my HPC. Now after the conversion you'll have a 70A J1772. The J1772 70A cord is much lighter than the HPC 70A cord.

Why not have two cords for one charger? You could use only one at a time, and the 2nd plug would have "hot" pins while charging, but why not for a personal charger?

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Are you saying your whole statements is based on Paul Scott's (who likes to promote 110V charging) remarks about the dealership he works for in the LA area?

No, I used that as a simple example to help you understand the problem... the chargers are for use by Nissan dealers and as they ship more EV's to customers the less the chargers will be available for other people to use. This is nothing new.... Nissan and the UK dealers have made it clear that their own needs come first.

In any case, the fact remains that Nissan currently does offer fast-chargers for public use in the Uk....

In the UK they do NOT... as a Leaf driver you can use the DC Charger during business hours at the sole discretion of the dealer... drivers have been turned away without charging and this problem will get worse. Nissan in the UK have stated that the provision of AC/DC charging for public use is not their responsibility.

Section 7 in this document nicely explains the value of fast charging for long trips, and promises financing 50 fast chargers, which I think would already give a good starting coverage for the UK.

I have already explained that the 50 Fast Chargers will not be financed and I think it's no surprise that 3 Phase is considered 'fast' in the UK given the shift to supporting IEC 62196.

I'm sorry but you simply have no idea of the realities on the ground in the UK... we have different requirements from the US, Japan, and Mainland Europe.

 

[Norbert]

No, I used that as a simple example to help you understand the problem... the chargers are for use by Nissan dealers and as they ship more EV's to customers the less the chargers will be available for other people to use. This is nothing new.... Nissan and the UK dealers have made it clear that their own needs come first.

Which problem would that help me to understand that I don't already understand? I still don't see the point in mentioning Paul Scott, and I think that Nissan US should install fast-chargers even for their own use. Perhaps they will when their production increases.

In the UK they do NOT... as a Leaf driver you can use the DC Charger during business hours at the sole discretion of the dealer... drivers have been turned away without charging and this problem will get worse. Nissan in the UK have stated that the provision of AC/DC charging for public use is not their responsibility.

Your description is one-sided. I have heard several reports from the UK of long trips using Nissan's fast-chargers. Various problems have been mentioned, but these fast-chargers exist, and they have been used for long trips. When they say it is not their responsibility, they may simply state that they assume no obligation, and may make further investments at their own choosing. Perhaps they hope others will want to establish an infrastructure, but if that doesn't happen (as you seem to imply), then the existing offer of public use still let's me expect that Nissan may fill the void if they have to. (As Tesla has indicated on their part.)

I have already explained that the 50 Fast Chargers will not be financed ...

So did I.

I'm sorry but you simply have no idea of the realities on the ground in the UK... we have different requirements from the US, Japan, and Mainland Europe.

Until you (and David) joined the discussion, it wasn't about the UK specifically. In any case, in my mind you didn't raise doubts that we will have DC fast charging. Someone will pay for it. Even if Elon Musk has to reach in his pocket once more. So for the time being, if your question is still "who's going to pay for these installations?", my answer is: Elon Musk.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

When they say it is not their responsibility, they may simply state that they assume no obligation, and may make further investments at their own choosing.

Tom Barnard, Communications director of Nissan GB, said recently - "We can't do infrastructure too. We can only encourage it."

http://twitter.com/#!/TomNissan/status/78455485740752897

I have discussed this with Nissan UK and a number of Nissan dealers and the only person who seems confused about this is you, Norbert.... once again I repeat, Nissan will NOT provide DC Fast charge infrastructure in the UK no matter how much you wish this was the case.

 

[Norbert]

Tom Barnard, Communications director of Nissan GB, said recently - "We can't do infrastructure too. We can only encourage it."

http://twitter.com/#!/TomNissan/status/78455485740752897

I have discussed this with Nissan UK and a number of Nissan dealers and the only person who seems confused about this is you, Norbert.... once again I repeat, Nissan will NOT provide DC Fast charge infrastructure in the UK no matter how much you wish this was the case.

Well, that's the first really strong argument regarding Nissan you bring up, I didn't know anyone that high at Nissan said that. But it remains to be seen what Nissan will do if no one else will install DC fast chargers. I think they could, if they wanted to, and I still think that they will, if they have to. It also remains to be seen whether Nissan will perhaps switch to Mennekes DC fast charging in Europe, and whether that will change the situation.

I remain with my point that the financing of DC fast chargers should be related to EV purchase, rather than expecting a return of investment from their use, at least until there are really a lot of EVs with fast-charging, and that initially this will be how it will work for Tesla.

Tesla does appear to have such plans (if needed), and you haven't responded to that point yet. Maybe it will mean that Tesla will succeed with DC fast charging, and that Nissan will fail? Who knows.

 

[Norbert]

IIRC most of this information came from the recent annual shareholder meeting, but also from more informal presentations of Elon Musk. Those statements known to me were discussed on this forum, if you want, I could provide specific pointers.

Andrew, here are the most relevant pointers and a quote each:

From an Elon Musk presentation early 2011, at the Clean Tech Summit 2011:

Charging Infrastructure

At Tesla we do recognize that as a long term thing, and we are developing a high speed charger, which is capable of recharging a battery pack in about 40 minutes or so, and we are going to offer that for free to our customers, we are going to just pick locations on the the major interstates every 100 miles or so, where there is a decent amount of traffic, and just install them for free. If they start to see significant usage, then we might put a card reader on them, or something. I do think that is an important thing to address, hence we are going to address it. And also we are happy to sell those fast chargers to others, if they want to install them in places.

From the general annual (shareholder) meeting June 2011:

Tesla Motors General Annual Meeting

Regarding charging stations, Musk said that Tesla vehicles' extended range means that the company could cover cross-country drives with 13 charging stations. He said eight to 10 stations on each seaboard could cover the U.S. coasts. At an expected investment of about $25,000 per station, "for a couple million dollars you have covered the country," Musk said

 

[AndrewBissell]

Thanks for these references. I gather from them that there has been a significant change of heart in Tesla regarding charging infrastructure, which is welcome.

 

[rabar10]

As an aside - it's great to see an online forum 'debate' that stays out of the gutter and ends with each party conceding at least a portion of the other's point. Thanks guys!

 

[vfx]

13 charge stations?!

Anyone hear whats happening at LAX?

 

[slcasner]

Some quotes from a friend who works in the EV charger business in the USA:

I think the three phase balance issue may be bogus. Most neighborhoods I've seen only have single phase feeders from the substation out, so the balance is between large numbers of blocks of houses. The only three phase that is common on poles seems to be in industrial or mixed use areas. Changing houses to three phase would be tremendously expensive.
...
Maybe newer subdivisions are different...

The pole behind my house carries all three phases. The transformer that feeds our house connects to two of them, while the next transformer down the line connects to a different pair (one wire in common, of course). That is what I've seen in other neighborhoods around me. This subdivision was built in the 1960's.

 

[TRON]

The thing is to get a car charged in one hour so that I don't have to stay over night at so much hotels if I drive 10.000 km like I will do from tomorrow on: see Hotels mit 32A Stromtankstellen - Charge hotels - where you can charge your e-car vehicle
I'm very interested if Tesla will use same infrastructure needs to Model S.
Does anyone have a picture of the Model S socket?

 

[Eberhard]

for a long distance trip, the most important fact is the relation between charging time and driving time. If you do 16h drive and 8h rest, you have to charge 1h for a 2h drive. Running with 120km/h you need 20kW means you have to charge with 44kW = 3phase 63A.
IF you can only charge with 7kW you can only drive with 80km = 10kW. you drive 1h and charge for 1,5h. you can only drive 10h and have to charge for 14h. with 16A = 3,5kW, you can only drive with 60km = 7kW, you drive 1h and charge 2h means 8h drive and 16h charge.
You can really see, speed of charge is limiting your daily traveling distance, not the capacity of the battery pack. Even with only 20kWh instead of 56kWh nothing would change.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

But it remains to be seen what Nissan will do if no one else will install DC fast chargers. I think they could, if they wanted to, and I still think that they will, if they have to.

The reality of DC Charging at Nissan Dealers in the UK today...

"Re: First attempt to quick charge fails

Thats just not good enough, that charger has been out of action pretty much the entire time I have owned my Leaf. Actualy, it was faulty before I collected my leaf in March...

Also, last sunday I used the quick charger at WestWay Southampton , and it packed up after 20 seconds. A phone call to the 24 hours onsite response company went unanswered, luckily Phil managed to get it working again by doing a full reset. The good thing was, there was a representative from Nissan UK to witness the entire thing, so i had a bit of a rant!

THESE FAST CHARGERS ARE DISGRACEFUL!!!

AND.....The Podpoints at BestBuy southampton are STILL not working .

One thing I made VERY clear to the Nissan rep, Nissans future in the EV market could live or die by the way it handles its charging infrastructure..."

http://www.leaftalk.co.uk/showthread.php/3636-First-attempt-to-quick-charge-fails?p=9000&viewfull=1#post9000