That is true, only if you can charge at your destination. I often stay overnight at places with no charging, thus needing to charge during the day instead.
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That is true, only if you can charge at your destination. I often stay overnight at places with no charging, thus needing to charge during the day instead.
I guess long-run it will work out like Internet in hotels. The good ones, who offer the facilities, will rise to the top. hotels seem to be the obvious place to me. No time rush, and they already have parking under their control.
There seem to be some early adopters that think their circumstance is widespread. This 40 miles per day on average statistic is trotted out but it's a case of lies and statistics I think. I would fall into that category, but I travel to work on the train and maybe drive 200 miles on the weekend.
I wonder how much those with a plug in hybrid to sell are influencing this?
The Roadster PEM. Essentially there is a three phase charger in it, I guess just the cooling needs to be beefed up to run continuously. But I suspected even 3 PEMs would be less than the weight quoted.
If we get to the point where 100 EVs at a time are fast charging at a service stop, then installing a 5MW supply to that stop will be costly but not outrageous in the context of the cost of the building or a filling station.
I'm not worried about hotels, I do however often stay the night at places where there is no electricity at all. Like in my cabin, the nearest powerlines are 5 miles away. Other example, some campsites or places that are a good starting point for camping trips.
Also, some trips require 5-600 miles driving in a day, I don't see 600-mile batteries being feasible in the next few years.
Many places will also offer only 16A 230V charging, that is 3.6kW and in 10 hours only 36kWh. A depleted 300-mile battery will require at least 9kW charging to fully charge in 10 hours.
for 11kW you need 16A 3-phase. if you look to the lemnet.rg or "drehstromliste" there are a lot of these already available in Europe, most in Germany, Switzerland an Austria. 32A socket are quite rare- and currently you can only one-phase on this.
Norbert
TSLA will win
I wasn't expecting something from BYD to contribute to this discussion, but here it is:
Green Car Congress: BYD reports plug-in fleet test results; rapid charging not diminishing capacity
Green Car Congress: BYD reports plug-in fleet test results; rapid charging not diminishing capacity
Norbert
TSLA will win
The average daily use doesn't require a huge battery. Since batteries are (still) expensive, many won't have a battery that is large enough to also cover their above-average driving.
While there are many other situations where fast-charging is the best solution, just motorway rest stops won't require hundreds of thousands chargers. The total number of gas stations in the US is around 120,000 (the number is shrinking). Even with fast-charging, most charging will still be done at home (or perhaps also at work). (This is meant in addition to David's great answer).
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
For all the talk about fast charge's effect on the battery, keep in mind the bigger the battery, the lesser the effect. On the battery side, all it cares about is the C rate.
For example, if you have a a 25kWh/100 mi pack, then 1C is 25kW (ignoring losses for easy math). If you have a 50kWh/200mi pack, 1C is 50kW. The bigger pack has twice the charging power, but the impact on the battery is the same. In terms of mph, the larger pack is charging at twice the "speed", even though the impact is the same.
For example, if you have a a 25kWh/100 mi pack, then 1C is 25kW (ignoring losses for easy math). If you have a 50kWh/200mi pack, 1C is 50kW. The bigger pack has twice the charging power, but the impact on the battery is the same. In terms of mph, the larger pack is charging at twice the "speed", even though the impact is the same.
I just don't get the scalability of this.
Let's take the extreme that all gas cars were replaced with leafs. Range is 1/4 of the gas equivalent and fast charge time is at least 6 times. Without home charging, and relying solely on gas-station equivalent fast charging, that means 24 times the number of gas pumps replaced with fast charge stations.
Now, the extreme case is obviously not going to happen, but the math works out that for each gas car replaced by a leaf (as an example of a car with small battery) without home charging this is 24x the number of 'refill stations'.
I think we need a new model, not just an adaptation of the existing infrastructure. Standing around in a lousy gas-station environment for a couple of minutes is fine, but not for the 30-45 minutes of a fast charge. Parks, hotels, restaurants seem the logical solution to me (with a selection of charging options).
Each market, and even individual needs within each market, are going to require different solutions. Where I live (Hong Kong), the vast majority of car owners can't do home charging, but I am lucky in that I can.
Norbert
TSLA will win
A single well-placed fast-charging station can already be a huge benefit to those cars that are able use it.
- Fast-charging doesn't mean "without home charging". In addition to home charging, there will be other methods of over-night charging. Hotels, as you say, certainly will have charging. There are already chargers which look almost like parking meters. I'd expect that the cost of J1772 chargers will go below $500, and when deployed in larger quantities, the relative installation cost will be low enough to justify the investment wherever used during most nights. As just an idea of how this might get solved. Of course, charging at the work place will be another option.
- Not all gas cars will be replaced with Leafs, that's not a basis for a realistic calculation. Future electric cars will have larger batteries (at decreasing prices) as well as even faster charging. The Model S will already have a 300 mile battery as an option. However the Leaf is already very useable for many.
- We are not talking about locating fast-charging stations in "lousy gas stations" ("motorway rest stops" were your example). They will be mostly at places where you would want to spend some time in any case. "Restaurants" are a much better example.
There will be a need for on-street, overnight, slow (8 hour to full) charging in large quantities. Most city dwellers will need this. Cities that wake up to this soon (and stop placing slow chargers at shopping malls, start placing them on residential streets) will be at significant advantage.
This is different from the need for fast (<1 hour to full) charging which will be needed to allow occasional use beyond daily driving range.
This is different from the need for fast (<1 hour to full) charging which will be needed to allow occasional use beyond daily driving range.
Norbert
TSLA will win
Same here. Maybe, for example, GM's idea to trade-mark "range anxiety" wasn't a single incident. In contrast to some claims that they are only competing with ICEs and not with EVs. On one hand trying to argue that 40 miles is enough, on the other, not only implying that paying lots of money for an additional ICE would be categorically better than having fast charging, but also trying to cast the latter in a bad light.
I was told today that the Model S would be J1772 based for the US versions. Not sure that is big news, but at least there is verification.
That is big news! That was widely expected of course but they were dragging their feet on confirming this. Will be nice once it's officially on their website with the specs but at least this opens the Model S to using public chargers without an adapter (hopefully).
most american has the idea, their current grid mostly based on single-phase or even split-phase are sufficient for the future. the answer is NO! Even if you got a 100A fuse, the utility gives you an average of max. 10A consumption over the year.
While as long as your are the only one in the neighborhood its fine. But if half of your neighbors owns an electric car as well, everything changes. The local transformer is distributing the 3-phases to the homes, giving every street one of the phases. If to many cars start charging, the transformer will blast or simply switch off under overload. The utility has to setup bigger transformer and to introduce smart grid abilities to limit power-consumption during peak time.
The simplest is monitoring the voltage, the phase shift and to reduce the current, when a grid overload is indicated. With 3-phases, its much easier and the less used phases can be better balanced out.
Nobody can deny, with increasing numbers of electrical cars, a grid update will be necessary and will lead to a higher voltage and 3-phase grid even in housing areas.
Also if some on this forum are tired about this discussion for america, because single and high current lines are still available, this will change and must change for the future. With increasing houses, installing solar power panels on their roof, the low-voltage grid-level has to be able to handle this additional load.
Tesla, has to take this into their account, because its not easy to change the cars charging equipment, when future development require more advanced charging technology. Tesla can learn from the need in europe today and prevents from making wrong decisions for the further developments.
While as long as your are the only one in the neighborhood its fine. But if half of your neighbors owns an electric car as well, everything changes. The local transformer is distributing the 3-phases to the homes, giving every street one of the phases. If to many cars start charging, the transformer will blast or simply switch off under overload. The utility has to setup bigger transformer and to introduce smart grid abilities to limit power-consumption during peak time.
The simplest is monitoring the voltage, the phase shift and to reduce the current, when a grid overload is indicated. With 3-phases, its much easier and the less used phases can be better balanced out.
Nobody can deny, with increasing numbers of electrical cars, a grid update will be necessary and will lead to a higher voltage and 3-phase grid even in housing areas.
Also if some on this forum are tired about this discussion for america, because single and high current lines are still available, this will change and must change for the future. With increasing houses, installing solar power panels on their roof, the low-voltage grid-level has to be able to handle this additional load.
Tesla, has to take this into their account, because its not easy to change the cars charging equipment, when future development require more advanced charging technology. Tesla can learn from the need in europe today and prevents from making wrong decisions for the further developments.
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USA doesn't seem to have a lot of appetite for infrastructure upgrade projects right now.
Also, for the majority drivers who have gasoline powered vehicles, they are not likely to approve of such projects if they are costly and targeted to help EVs only.
Unfortunately, I think it is more likely we limp along with aging, barely adequate power infrastructure for quite some time. But, even so, a large percentage of drivers could get by with nightly slow charge and using their EV primarily for local commutes and errands, but not for long road trips. Some Roadster owners continue to "show off" these long distance trips and quest for the highest speed charging along major routes, but more EV penetration could happen with cheaper, shorter range, slower charging cars (such as Nissan Leaf for instance), and then those without a 2nd car could rent a hybrid for those times they need to travel long distances.
Also, for the majority drivers who have gasoline powered vehicles, they are not likely to approve of such projects if they are costly and targeted to help EVs only.
Unfortunately, I think it is more likely we limp along with aging, barely adequate power infrastructure for quite some time. But, even so, a large percentage of drivers could get by with nightly slow charge and using their EV primarily for local commutes and errands, but not for long road trips. Some Roadster owners continue to "show off" these long distance trips and quest for the highest speed charging along major routes, but more EV penetration could happen with cheaper, shorter range, slower charging cars (such as Nissan Leaf for instance), and then those without a 2nd car could rent a hybrid for those times they need to travel long distances.
Norbert
TSLA will win
TEG, don't forget that DC fast chargers do use 3-phase as input. In the US, it seems the slower "Level 2" EVSE units (such as the current SAE J1772 AC Level 2 chargers/EVSE units) are the ones which use single and/or split phase (I'm not not an expert, just following the public discussion of this subject).
Therefore, at least in the US, the arguments above would speak in favor of DC fast charging.
Although perhaps it might depend on how the charger converts 3-phase to DC, which however is solely a matter of the DC charger itself (those big boxes installed at parking spots).
Otherwise I agree that the utilities in the US don't give the impression that they have plans (or would be willing) to change their infrastructure in such a way. For the far future, who knows, maybe even a DC grid would make sense (I was reading stuff that the advancement of electronics in DC/DC (and perhaps even DC/AC) conversion might allow that. But that's perhaps for the utilities (or the DOE) to figure out, or to let us know about, if they want that to be part of the public discussion. Although I think that these things will become more and more a part of the technical discussion as the general discussion of all energy related matters progresses.
If the 3-phase argument is applicable to the US, then I'd think it would be the task of a standard body like SAE to cooperate with the utilities, to provide a standard that incooperates 3-phase (or to adopt Mennekes). It doesn't seem like Tesla could accomplish anything in this regard just by making that part of the car charger, however I suppose it may become an option at least for the european version of the Model S, for (AC) Level 2 charging. One difficulty there might be that Europe itself hasn't agreed on a specific standard yet. Besides Mennekes, there seem to be other variants still in discussion. Is Mennekes already used by any european car manufacturer other than by prototypes?
Therefore, at least in the US, the arguments above would speak in favor of DC fast charging.
Although perhaps it might depend on how the charger converts 3-phase to DC, which however is solely a matter of the DC charger itself (those big boxes installed at parking spots).
Otherwise I agree that the utilities in the US don't give the impression that they have plans (or would be willing) to change their infrastructure in such a way. For the far future, who knows, maybe even a DC grid would make sense (I was reading stuff that the advancement of electronics in DC/DC (and perhaps even DC/AC) conversion might allow that. But that's perhaps for the utilities (or the DOE) to figure out, or to let us know about, if they want that to be part of the public discussion. Although I think that these things will become more and more a part of the technical discussion as the general discussion of all energy related matters progresses.
If the 3-phase argument is applicable to the US, then I'd think it would be the task of a standard body like SAE to cooperate with the utilities, to provide a standard that incooperates 3-phase (or to adopt Mennekes). It doesn't seem like Tesla could accomplish anything in this regard just by making that part of the car charger, however I suppose it may become an option at least for the european version of the Model S, for (AC) Level 2 charging. One difficulty there might be that Europe itself hasn't agreed on a specific standard yet. Besides Mennekes, there seem to be other variants still in discussion. Is Mennekes already used by any european car manufacturer other than by prototypes?
Norbert
TSLA will win
Regarding DC grid compared to (3-phase) AC grid: An interesting IEEE Spectrum article about the advantages (and feasibility) of a DC grid:
Direct-Current Networks Gain Ground - IEEE Spectrum (2 pages, Feb 2011)
Two other articles:
DC: the Future of the Grid
(Feb 2010)
Power transmission: Where the wind blows | The Economist (2007)
Direct-Current Networks Gain Ground - IEEE Spectrum (2 pages, Feb 2011)
Two other articles:
DC: the Future of the Grid
(Feb 2010)
Power transmission: Where the wind blows | The Economist (2007)
Norbert
TSLA will win
Were you talking about Level 2 charging, or DC fast charging (or both) ? Elon also mentioned the SAE standards (current and upcoming) in the Q&A section of the recent shareholders meeting, but only in so far as saying something like that they are good even though they could be improved.
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