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General Discussion: 2018 Investor Roundtable

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I don't think that you have been shadowbanned but of course i don't know for sure. I guess you have tried to view your posts when you logged out and they didn't show up? Anyway now i can see your posts that's all that matters.

Don't you think that Tesla has big pockets like e.g. Fidelity, Tencent backing them? They would never let their investment go bankrupt if it's only about time. If Tesla can't meet margins very longterm they may give up on it. But for now bankruptcy is in my opinion not even a slight possibility. The worst thing that could happen is that they have to do an equity raise at worse conditions. In this case you would of course also have won (if you cover). Additionally there is EM's stake in SpaceX which is now valued at approx. 11 billion if i remember correctly. He could create a new class of shares to maintain control and sell some shares what he would do for sure to safe Tesla. He could also try to sell some Tesla shares but this would create enormous downward pressure on the stock, or he could try to talk to friends like Larry Page. Those are just very far out thought's but in underlines the argument that bankruptcy is not remotely a possibility right now.
Regarding the debts: Most of it is also quite far out and some is convertible. But i understand your case that if Tesla can not deliver and the SP is tanking they could face additional downward pressure when the first junk in 2019 isn't converted and comes due and Tesla has to raise equity or debt at unfavorable conditions. On the other side: If Model 3 can ramp up & achieve the promised margins Investors will happily fund further expansion and Model 3 will produce substantial operating cash flows.

Those arguments concerning the S/X margins and additional costs are obviously somewhat valid but i would never go as far as saying they never produced a car profitably. It's important to understand that Tesla's business Model didn't really aim for profits but for expansion. Sure there are additional SGA costs for direct sales but those costs were to built a global infrastructure which can support more than the current vehicles (but they still have to increase the infrastructure for Model 3, especially if they expect 500k a year production at some point in 2019). As Model 3 owners are going to pay for Supercharging the actual supercharging cost per S/X is going to decrease (a lot of Supercharging stations are already built and not fully utilized ). In their latest 10-K Tesla says regarding Supercharging and Warranty:

"Cost of automotive revenue includes direct parts, material and labor costs, manufacturing overhead (including amortized tooling costs), shipping and logistic costs, vehicle internet connectivity costs, allocations of electricity and infrastructure costs related to our Supercharger network and reserves for estimated warranty expenses. Cost of automotive revenue also includes adjustments to warranty expense and charges to write-down the carrying value of our inventory when it exceeds its estimated net realizable value and to provide for on-hand inventory that is either obsolete or in excess of forecasted demand."

This is not in line with your Thesis. Do you think they are lying about it or what exactly is your argument here?

ZEV credits are for sure a point but they are not going away but have some political risk/opportunity and tax credits is a good point. It's going to be interesting to see how the vehicles sell without them but i don't think Tesla has to decreases prices as much as those credits (maybe just a bit or not at all). It really depends how much costumers love the cars and how much demand is going to be created. Like you said people admire EM that's great for the brand value. (and EV's are the future, the car is great and so on) In the near term the facing out of the credits is going to push demand.

Yeah manufacturing is quite hard and i have to admit that i have been naive to believe EM promise of exceptional automation without having background knowledge. But you would certainly agree that it's impressive to create a new auto manufacturer and that Tesla and EM in general have been quite innovative? Tesla is now catching up in car manufacturing and is leading in battery technology. Longterm i am still optimistic that they can innovate faster than the rest of the industry as they have the right mindset and attract the best talents from around the world (people admire EM) Some advanced automation lines may actually work right now (e.g. grohman line) and their hard push forward on the automation front may left them with some valuable experiences, insights and some industry leading systems.

I don't know how unusually the turnover is. But Tesla is for sure an "Academy" for future forms of transportations. (EV, self driving)
Some may see it as a steppingstone as many former Tesla employees got great jobs at other employers or creating their own businesses. The argument that those people who leave do this because they know that Tesla is going to go bankrupt is in my opinion non sense. Not even the Top Management including EM knows how profitable Tesla is going to be in the future. They only reason for this argument to be true would be if you believe Tesla is a total scam and they even planed it as a scam.

Of course Tesla's current valuation could never be justified without expansion planes. It come's all down to it. Model 3 and it's margins are going to be critical. While i am worried about it i still believe they are going to be quite positive. This is because
1) Tesla planed it's production, has prices from suppliers and so on.
2) Knew that automation was risky and some of it will fail. e.g. Tesla's Future Hinges On Reinventing Auto Manufacturing. Can It Pull It Off?
3) The way i read it 24/7 is only part of the burst strategy. Even if it is not 400 (or even meaningful more) additional workers are not that expensive if they can achieve 5k/wk production. You can calculate it for your own.
4) They reaffirmed good gross margins in the Q1 Delivery Report and EM tweeting that Tesla would be profitable and cashflow+

Again if you think Tesla is all a scam and they lie until the last point (why should they do this, this would only hurt their credibility) than you could think margins can actually be negative or near zero. Otherwise i feel that setbacks on automation are going to hurt margins a bit but there is no way they could be negative, near zero, not even around 10% and i am still hoping for around 20% or better on about longterm 45k ASP. (shortterm higher ASP)

Your points regarding margins are interesting and may be valid but only short term. Short term is only really interesting if you think Tesla could go bankrupt near term but as i described this possibility equals zero in my opinion. Even the possibility that Tesla needs cash short term (next 6 month) is quite slim. It has nothing to do with longterm expansion plans.

I think if Tesla succeeds it's very valuable for suppliers (orders and also learning) and that Top Tier suppliers want to work for Tesla is a good sign in this regard. In my opinion EM is also a businessman (even if he says he's not). E.g. he took over Tesla when they had problems with supply chain and manufacturing and turned it into a big success.

What's your price target btw and how big is your short position? I would advise you to be really careful. Not believing in a company is one thing, shorting it is another. For sure you know all the risks associated with shorting. Another point to consider is that a lot of rich and powerful people want tesla to fail (probably part of your short thesis) but those people spread a lot of misinformation like the story that Tesla could soon go bankrupt or is a scam. This may create a certain short term downward pressure but if it turns out that this is fundamentally not true believing such "information" could really backfire.

To summarize your bear case: Tesla is not going to be profitable/growth will be inhibited because:
- EM is not a businessman (based on his startup history/lack of profits?)
- Manufacturing is hard; margins will not be achieved (i noticed the "inexperienced" point but is there some kind of further proof to strengthen the argument?)
- Financial Engineering/ High turnover of people (sounds like conspiracy theory -> hard proof/facts are needed)
- Raising cash is going to be difficult (this is only a derivation of the margin argument isn't it?)
- Tesla has a very high valuation

Is is a fair summary? Would be happy if you could try to defend/prove those assumptions (except high valuation and the argument that interest rates are going to rise) and give them some credibility. To me it just sounds like general doubt but i would be happy if you could add some substance to it. Also: At which points you may be(may have been) wrong?

Edit: I noticed that you said that one important pillar of the bear case is the assumption of bad margins. I like that you are reflected. What i am basically asking for is some proof/details for those further assumptions (way behind learning curve, financial engineering, strange people turnover)
 
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Watching the impossible (spacex landing first stage) never gets old. Good reminder that the experts are not always right about what is and is not possible.

If I ever own a Model X, I will be able to experience the same feeling every time I open those “impossible to manufacture” doors

Also seeing how those "speed brakes" were used for navigation at the end, like "oh, I just need to paddle my feet to steer around rocks when I'm in the rapids." (For those of us who have taken a Mokelumne River raft cruise.)
 
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Thanks! Unfortunately, it may be hard for me to respond as I believe I've been shadowbanned on this forum. My posts show up for me, but no one else, so I've just ducked out and stopped posting.

You haven't been shadowbanned, as I've seen all your posts. But I'm sure you're on many people's "ignore list", which means they don't see your posts. There are a few known trolls that seem to be on most everyone's ignore list, and so some of the posters look funny that way, because they'll post a reply, but no one responds to them.

If you really are on many people's ignore list, then you should consider if you've added anything to the discussion? Although unappealing, it helps to have read the entire thread first before re-hashing old ideas.
 
Interesting that they surmise a new battery type, despite no comment from Tesla on that matter... and based on that speculation dismiss the 200KWh battery capacity, which is the one thing Tesla DID disclose...
Yes I found some of their reasoning to be flawed. However somewhere Elon did mention they were working on a possible breakthrough battery chemistry, my guess is something probably tied to Prof Dahn's work. Speculation to line up with the reasoning in that article: A more energy dense cell chemistry which only has acceptable cycle life if shallow cycled, hence the 200kWh pack "only" providing 620 miles of range.
 
Yes I found some of their reasoning to be flawed. However somewhere Elon did mention they were working on a possible breakthrough battery chemistry, my guess is something probably tied to Prof Dahn's work. Speculation to line up with the reasoning in that article: A more energy dense cell chemistry which only has acceptable cycle life if shallow cycled, hence the 200kWh pack "only" providing 620 miles of range.
I agree that makes more sense than assuming the 200KWh number is bogus.
 
I don't believe in the genius of Elon Musk... I do think he's a true visionary and futurologist, and he's great at marketing that vision.

This seems to be the common thread... That Musk is predominantly just an idea man (visionary, futurologist, etc) and huckster (great at marketing), when that's clearly the least of which sets him apart from the field.

I have big ideas and visions and am pretty good at bullshitting people, so you could argue all I need are some spacecraft and my own car company and it is same!
 
Yes, I’ve stopped reading the bear articles altogether, they are such rubbish mostly.

I have stopped as well. Figured I didn’t want to contribute to their garbage journalism. Any negative Tesla article get lots of clicks which is obviously what the journalist are after so I don’t want to contribute to the madness.
 
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