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GM Chevy Volt
- Thread starter vfx
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WhiteKnight
_____ P85 #549 _____ Sig Red / Sig White
The Volt has crazy low lease rates. A $40,000 Volt can be had for $279 per month with $2419 down and it's only for 2 years. If your commute is less than 38 miles you can be all-electic. So I am seriously considering leasing for 2 years until my Model X comes in.
gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
Disappointing article. It mentions the 4 week production shutdown at GM's Hamtramck plant and its impact in the media, but fails to explore the reason any further. If GM retools the production plant, one reason could be to bring down production costs. The Volt's $40k price (before tax credit) is it's Achilles heel. Were it $25k, GM could sell 10k per quarter.
Thanks for the link to the article. Not pro EV, but not that bad either. I didn't see any factual mistakes.
The comments were interesting also. There are some really good ones by Volt owners, and, of course, some ignorant ones as well.
GSP
The comments were interesting also. There are some really good ones by Volt owners, and, of course, some ignorant ones as well.
GSP
A news article on Yahoo says that GM is losing $49,000 on every Volt it sells, due to the low volume and the leasing deals. It mentions that higher sales volume would lower the per-unit loss by spreading out development costs, but that the car is over-engineered and over-priced. That's basically what I've said: The Volt is too complicated, and falls short both as an EV and as a gas-extended car. Four years ago (before the Tesla went into production, and with no other freeway-capable EV on the market) I'd have bought a Volt. Today I consider it the worst of both worlds, although within its pathetic 35-mile EV range it's a very nice car to drive.
News article on Yahoo.
News article on Yahoo.
"sunk costs are sunk"
It's not appropriate to include amortized development costs when answering the question, how much are we earning per unit? GM's bottom line is improved by selling more Volts, so they can't be losing money on each unit. At current volumes, however, the program hasn't turned a profit.
It's not appropriate to include amortized development costs when answering the question, how much are we earning per unit? GM's bottom line is improved by selling more Volts, so they can't be losing money on each unit. At current volumes, however, the program hasn't turned a profit.
Duckjybe
Member
All the more reason to buy one now as you are getting a great deal for the amount of engineering and design that went into the Volt. Its a fantastic transition car for those not ready for a full on EV with range anxiety. For its complexity it sure has been reliable. IMO its actually a great combination of both worlds. I hope GM, to save costs, doesn't cheapen it to the point its not a quality car. I never thought I would buy a Chevy, but I did and am not regretting it, and now prefer to drive it over our BMW.
I will have to say. If I were single, and drove ~15 miles to work (instead of 25) I would probably end up with a Volt. And I HATE GM vehicles. I worked counting traffic for an engineering firm while in high school in the summer. And they had big Chevy 1500 and 2500 pickups, but I always picked the Ranger with 170,000+ miles. Because I thought it was a better vehicle!
Any way now I have a wife so I would probably have a LEAF if I were in that position, as we could road trip in that car. The Model S will be the first car that I can do regular daily driving without going over my range.
Any way now I have a wife so I would probably have a LEAF if I were in that position, as we could road trip in that car. The Model S will be the first car that I can do regular daily driving without going over my range.
Using the same logic: Tesla is currently losing $10,000,000 on every Model S it sells, due to low volume. Higher sales volume would lower the per-unit loss by spreading out R&D costs, but the car is over-batteried and over-priced.
See how that works?
You fell for the headline, hook line and sinker. Unfortunately, so will most people.
Great analogy! Had it not been for Model S, I would have gotten a Volt. Many products do not sell well in their first several years and the time to re-coup R&D costs can be long. In future years, I can see Volt with 100-mile battery range. That will not only sell well; but will also enable drivers having range anxiety to take small steps towards full BEVs.
FalconNinetyD
Active Member
Exactly. If it were all about money then I think we would all be driving Versas.
2012 Nissan Versa Sedan 1.6 S Price With Options
I've said it before and I'll say it again: At the < 30k price point the Volt/Ampera is the only game in town if you want a car that has no compromise in useability and offers a huge saving in petrol by running electric most of the time. I think there are some (by no means all) on here who forget that the mass market wants cars at this price point and cannot afford to just get a 200+ mile Model S. There is literally no one who could argue that a Voltec type of drivetrain doesn't meet their need to move from A to B if it were mandated that all cars have them tomorrow, yet it would slash petrol use and emissions to 20% of current levels or less. I do not drive one due to range anxiety.
I'm not convinced that significantly larger battery range is needed. You are getting into the law of diminishing returns. I'd rather see new tech go into reducing the battery size and mass and ultimately cost by a few thousand than offer 100 mile EV range, although I will not complain if they can do both.
As for 'hard to get a return on investment', I've already saved £1000 on petrol in 4 months. That's headed for £3000 in a year, £30k in ten years or more than the cost of the car in its lifetime. I wouldn't do noticably any better with the Model S. Put another way, the Ampera leaves me £20k better off in TCO than an equivalent diesel, with the cross-over point at 3.5 years. I'm not the only one doing this kind of commute - there are thousands of cars on the motorway each morning and evening - and all of these people would benefit in the same way. The car is priced the same as a mid-range BMW 3 Series and there are plenty of those on the road (it's the most popular private car purchase here), so affordability is clearly not an issue.
As for this claim that they lose $49k on each one: BS. We had a similar story before when the per car amount was $250k. These people are clearly idiots and the fact it has been repeated across so many websites is a sad indictment of modern 'journalism'. It's called Non-Recurring Engineering cost folks. Every product has the same. Besides, Bob Lutz did a very nice breakdown of Volt costs that shown they are probably breaking even or better on each car now. If they want to speed up NRE recovery, best get that drivetrain into more cars. I vote for the new Cascada convertable next.
I'm not convinced that significantly larger battery range is needed. You are getting into the law of diminishing returns. I'd rather see new tech go into reducing the battery size and mass and ultimately cost by a few thousand than offer 100 mile EV range, although I will not complain if they can do both.
As for 'hard to get a return on investment', I've already saved £1000 on petrol in 4 months. That's headed for £3000 in a year, £30k in ten years or more than the cost of the car in its lifetime. I wouldn't do noticably any better with the Model S. Put another way, the Ampera leaves me £20k better off in TCO than an equivalent diesel, with the cross-over point at 3.5 years. I'm not the only one doing this kind of commute - there are thousands of cars on the motorway each morning and evening - and all of these people would benefit in the same way. The car is priced the same as a mid-range BMW 3 Series and there are plenty of those on the road (it's the most popular private car purchase here), so affordability is clearly not an issue.
As for this claim that they lose $49k on each one: BS. We had a similar story before when the per car amount was $250k. These people are clearly idiots and the fact it has been repeated across so many websites is a sad indictment of modern 'journalism'. It's called Non-Recurring Engineering cost folks. Every product has the same. Besides, Bob Lutz did a very nice breakdown of Volt costs that shown they are probably breaking even or better on each car now. If they want to speed up NRE recovery, best get that drivetrain into more cars. I vote for the new Cascada convertable next.
I agree in general, but not quite to the degree. The Volt is one of the main players in town. And has few compromises in useability.
It really depends upon your driving habits. Daniel and I have discussed this before over at the Priuschat forums
For Daniel, he drives short distances, as I recall, and takes very long trips to hike for days. With that driving pattern the Prius actually saves him more gas than the Volt would. And since he has multiple vehicles, he really would only need the Prius or Volt for very long trips.
For my wife's and my driving habits the Volt is perfect. Round trip to work is 34-37 miles. About two thirds of our non-work related trips are in that distance as well.
However, for people with frequent trips beyond the 30-50 miles EV range of the Volt, the Prius is worth a serious look.
As for compromises, the Volt is very complicated. So far though, it appears the GM engineers have done an excellent job. How much maintenance is required later in its life is yet to be seen. It also only has seating for 4 and the back seats are rather short in the legroom department. We rarely use them and never need a 5th seat so that doesn't affect us, but they are viewed as compromises by many.
Primarily I think the Volt is an awesome addition to the market as it gives consumers another option. I would rather see 4 good options of efficient cars (>100 mpg) that are substantially different than 40 options that are all the same (e.g. Leaf vs Miev).
This is correct. When I drove the 40-mile Zap Xebra I drove the Prius about once a month. Now I'll probably drive it 3 or 4 times a year. Since it's almost 9 years old, it's maybe worth half what I paid (KBB) but it's been extremely reliable, so trading it in seems pointless.It really depends upon your driving habits. Daniel and I have discussed this before over at the Priuschat forums
For Daniel, he drives short distances, as I recall, and takes very long trips to hike for days. With that driving pattern the Prius actually saves him more gas than the Volt would. And since he has multiple vehicles, he really would only need the Prius or Volt for very long trips.
Since I don't like to burn gas at all when I can avoid it, I'd be very unhappy with the Volt, which is dirtier and burns more gas in CS mode than the Prius. Even the Xebra and the Prius was a better combination for me than a Volt, and now with the Roadster, that and the Prius is WAY better for me than a Volt.
And with the complexity of the Volt and GM's reputation, I do not trust its reliability. I drove one and it is very nice to drive. Actually nicer to drive than the Prius. But I'd still want the Prius for my road trips, due to the Volt's poor FE in CS mode, so the Volt would be my LAST choice for an "EV." (In quotes because the Volt is not a pure EV.) The Leaf has more range, the Roadster is more fun, and even the Xebra, with its coolness factor was preferable for me.
Of course, if you can afford a Tesla Roadster, money is not the deciding factor. The Volt costs less than a Model S, but that's like saying that a Versa costs less than a BMW. A Versa and a Leaf together would probably cost about the same as a Volt, but you'd have more EV range and you'd have two cars, which most families want or need.
The Volt has its niche, people for whom it's the best choice. But given the price, I think it's quite a small niche.
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