Has anyone heard of a Tesla being rear ended because of phantom braking?

[cdub]

I had my first experience of this phantom breaking during my Hertz rental over the weekend. It was my first time driving a model 3 for a long time besides a test drive.

Both happened before a bridge that had a dark shadow.

But it wasn't sudden and horrible. Yes it slowed down but would never have caused an accident unless someone was tailgating seriously close behind me.

Felt like someone just released their foot off of the accelerator and regened. Nothing dangerous. Annoying but I'm glad the car is being careful.

 

[Allx]

Could it be that you normally drive in fair weather ?

Maybe they could scrape by with the same cameras for a while longer but placement will need to change for some scenarios and high resolution radar will help solve for fog and snow storm situations (both cause FSD to disable as it stands).

Don’t get me wrong , FSD is impressive but we’re a ways off from being able to enjoy our personal robotaxi.

 

[drtimhill]

i'm not douting you but would love to see if you have any references on that. iot model training is pretty hot right now.

He is correct, in the sense that the individual cars NN's are fixed and only changed when a new software update is downloaded. Of course, there is indeed a feedback loop from the cars to the NNs, but it happens very indirectly as the drivers/car report back to Tesla and they then retrain the NN's offline and download updates to the cars, but his is a months long cycle.

 

[pipestem]

He is correct, in the sense that the individual cars NN's are fixed and only changed when a new software update is downloaded. Of course, there is indeed a feedback loop from the cars to the NNs, but it happens very indirectly as the drivers/car report back to Tesla and they then retrain the NN's offline and download updates to the cars, but his is a months long cycle

As I said i was not doubting just discussing. The cited article is clear but not very detailed. In the full scope of FSD or even basic Autopilot I would expect the nets to be more complex than pytorch style image detection and classification. Even the infamous wipers are controlled by a neural net with a feedback loop. Looking around I found some increasing detail in articles at notaTeslaApp, thinkAutonomous and towardsAI that go into more detail about Tesla's multi-task learning. The last two reference a nice set of articles on Medium. These are still popular reviews and not really primary source material. There are recent videos from Telsa at
[CVPR'21 WAD] Keynote - Andrej Karpathy, Tesla - YouTube., and [CVPR'22 WAD] Keynote - Ashok Elluswamy, Tesla
Looking forward, Elon of course recently said "...We’re starting to make use of neural nets for vehicle navigation and control, not just vision."

ok, that is enough googling for now. I need to get back to my own work which is more targeted at traditional MLP classification and regression, but seeing more CV applications, though definitely not autonomous driving!

 

[Frank Langella]

So where do you keep you feet? Criss Crossed on the seat?

I literally told you in the post you quoted.

 

[CyberGus]

Basic comparison of HW3 vs HW4, and confirmation of radar units (unused?) in S/X.

Cybertruck won’t need radar, we’ll just roll right over stuff

 

[enemji]

I literally told you in the post you quoted.

I was asking about non Tesla cars. The ones that have the cruise control you like. When you drive those, where is your right foot?

 

[Frank Langella]

If it worked properly I'd just keep my foot on the floor.

 

[jbt100]

I was under the impression pb had gotten better but just did a trip Utah to California and had extreme pb on us 95 between Las Vegas and Reno. No rhyme or reason just some serious pb and sometimes with no traffic in either direction. Going to change the name of the y from blue tiger to blue gangster you just can't trust it. Still hoping Tesla can figure this out before I need a new one as I won't be buying another one if they don't.

 

[Frank Langella]

I was under the impression pb had gotten better but just did a trip Utah to California and had extreme pb on us 95 between Las Vegas and Reno. No rhyme or reason just some serious pb and sometimes with no traffic in either direction. Going to change the name of the y from blue tiger to blue gangster you just can't trust it. Still hoping Tesla can figure this out before I need a new one as I won't be buying another one if they don't.

I'd open a service report for TACC not working properly. They'll ask you for an exact time/date that one occurred so they can pull the logs, which I had because I had video of some of them. They almost certainly won't do anything to fix it but they need to know how widespread the problem is.

I'd also file an NHTSA complaint on it.

 

[IROAR]

Filing NHTSA complaint is way to go. That will elevate the problem in Tesla world

 

[drtimhill]

I was under the impression pb had gotten better but just did a trip Utah to California and had extreme pb on us 95 between Las Vegas and Reno. No rhyme or reason just some serious pb and sometimes with no traffic in either direction. Going to change the name of the y from blue tiger to blue gangster you just can't trust it. Still hoping Tesla can figure this out before I need a new one as I won't be buying another one if they don't.

Can you be more specific? What is a "serious" PB event?

 

[jbt100]

Can you be more specific? What is a "serious" PB event?

Sure, speed limit was 70 mph and car suddenly braked from 70 down to around 40 before I could correct it throwing my wife forward having to catch herself on the dash. This happened with no traffic coming forward or backward. This happened repeatedly for about two hours until we got to a more traveled area. I checked cameras to make sure they were clean and they were so I'm clueless as to why this is happening. This had happened before and I thought it was getting better but I guess not. Like I said it is not trustworthy and whenever a car or truck gets behind me I just disable the system.

 

[David2023Y]

Phantom braking is definitely a problem that I have encountered several times already. I have only had the car 3 months.

We live in a rural area with lots of trees close to roads. Car seems to throw on brakes at shadows! I am learning not to use TACC when sharp shadows present on road. I don't think I should have to stop using this feature at times.

Definitely something Elon needs to work on.

 

[Dewg]

Phantom braking is definitely a problem that I have encountered several times already. I have only had the car 3 months.

We live in a rural area with lots of trees close to roads. Car seems to throw on brakes at shadows! I am learning not to use TACC when sharp shadows present on road. I don't think I should have to stop using this feature at times.

Definitely something Elon needs to work on.

It's being worked on. The new FSD Beta single stack uses the new software and all cameras while on the freeway (AP) and is a different experience.

 

[enemji]

Phantom braking is definitely a problem that I have encountered several times already. I have only had the car 3 months.

We live in a rural area with lots of trees close to roads. Car seems to throw on brakes at shadows! I am learning not to use TACC when sharp shadows present on road. I don't think I should have to stop using this feature at times.

Definitely something Elon needs to work on.

I would say I have experienced phantom slowdowns, and not necessarily braking, which to me implies a full stop.

 

[Altes]

honestly i'm not sure how much of an issue this still is, i'm on the latest build of FSDb but in my experience phantom breaking is gone

Oh its still around every day, try reading the forum here

 

[Frank Langella]

I would say I have experienced phantom slowdowns, and not necessarily braking, which to me implies a full stop.

It doesn't imply that at all.

 

[israndy]

So is P.B. a panic stop, or an unexpected slowing? Seems like if it's just slowing intermittently, like it does when it feels the next lane of traffic is going too slow, it's not a big deal and may even be safer.

 

[Dewg]

So is P.B. a panic stop, or an unexpected slowing? Seems like if it's just slowing intermittently, like it does when it feels the next lane of traffic is going too slow, it's not a big deal and may even be safer.

There's a wide variety of definitions here on TMC. Some view it as any slowdown that's not expected, including just a few MPH. Others define it as a "slamming on the brakes" event where it drops 20+ MPH rapidly. And yet others see it as an AEB event (automatic emergency braking), which is a safety system designed to mitigate a collision.