If I was of a mind to buy a second hand Tesla I would be be unlikely to buy one from a non-specialist car dealer. They are seen as complicated tech and people are going to want the reassurance of buying direct from Tesla or at least from a well established EV dealer. I'm not surprised that the average dealer won't be interested in PX.
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Have you lost faith in Tesla?
- Thread starter DeejUK
- Start date
If I was of a mind to buy a second hand Tesla I would be be unlikely to buy one from a non-specialist car dealer. They are seen as complicated tech and people are going to want the reassurance of buying direct from Tesla or at least from a well established EV dealer. I'm not surprised that the average dealer won't be interested in PX.
You may note that I said "They are seen as complicated tech.." Whether they are or not is a separate issue.
Has getting parts been an issue? Yes ... so best direct from Tesla.
Does the car depend on software for many most functions and is that software managed directly by Tesla? Yes ... so best deal direct with Tesla.
Does the car still have some warranty left on it? Yes ... so best deal direct with Tesla.
⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️
Village Idiot
Why do you think this?
The current hardware may not be enough to achieve full self driving but I believe Tesla will be the first to achieve full autonomy. The fact that it is taking Tesla so long to even get to where they currently are, proves how difficult of a task achieving full autonomous driving is.
I'm currently on a 2,000 mile road trip from Portland to San Diego and back, and have been very impressed with the latest FSD performance. It's actually incredibly useful, and I don't need to worry about navigating anymore. I use to struggle with navigating San Diego, but now I can let my brain turn further into mush while my car takes me to where I need to go. I still need to babysit it, but I don't need to look at or listen to navigation instructions anymore. I always kept the verbal instructions muted anyway.
I feel like FSD is on the cusp of being truly amazing. I think even if it takes five years from now, that Tesla will still beat the competition, to having an affordable consumer FSD solution.
It's much easier to remain as optimistic as you if you at least have the beta version. Nobody outside of the US has this access.
Zilla91
Active Member
⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️
Village Idiot
Just quick search says the Drive Pilot system is only level three during daylight hours and under 40 mph. I wonder what other limitations it has.
Seems to be a wider BEV problem. Audi E-Tron and Jaguar iPace is in similar, if not worse, position.
⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️
Village Idiot
Oh I see this isn’t US thread. I didn’t realize. I was just looking through the latest posts. Didn’t think to look at location.
For me, the removal of USS is a major clanger, and has effectively shaken my confidence in Tesla’s engineering prowess. As anyone who has used it in anything other than a very straightforward parking situation will know, it’s bloody awful. The loss of utility itself is bad enough (I’m admittedly not the best parker in the world, and the Y has very poor rear visibility/view of front wings), but it also says something important about Tesla’s design and production process.
They clearly decided to remove USS as a cost-cutting measure, as well as a seemingly more “elegant” solution to park assist. Unless they’re utter idiots, they will have started developing the visual park assist software well in advance of deleting the USS. I wager they realised pretty quickly that it was harder to do than initially envisioned. They clearly went ahead regardless, hoping the software would fix everything. Even when the production deadline for deletion of USS passed, it clearly wasn’t workable, hence the months of delay before it was released. When we did finally get it, it proved to be at best, equivalent of a poor-to-averagely skilled human - anything tricky completely flummoxes it. (So ironically, it only works when we don’t really need it).
Visual Park Assist must have now been in development for quite some time, and it’s clearly fundamentally flawed/ a difficult nut to crack. I have very little faith in it ever being as good as any reasonable USS, but by throwing a huge amount of resource in a turd-polishing exercise may eventually make it workable in most situations. Even if his happens, it makes you wonder if Tesla’s engineering culture is correct - they will have done something the hard way rather than any kind of elegant engineering. If also begs the question of whether this mindset also exists in other systems like FSD, or even something as simple as auto-wipers. A lot of people think Tesla will be the first to crack proper FSD, but I wonder if they’ve thought themselves into too many dead-ends (like visual Park Assist) to really make a cohesive system. They may be relying on brute force approach to papering over the cracks in a fundamentally flawed system, whilst someone else will come along with a more elegant solution.
They clearly decided to remove USS as a cost-cutting measure, as well as a seemingly more “elegant” solution to park assist. Unless they’re utter idiots, they will have started developing the visual park assist software well in advance of deleting the USS. I wager they realised pretty quickly that it was harder to do than initially envisioned. They clearly went ahead regardless, hoping the software would fix everything. Even when the production deadline for deletion of USS passed, it clearly wasn’t workable, hence the months of delay before it was released. When we did finally get it, it proved to be at best, equivalent of a poor-to-averagely skilled human - anything tricky completely flummoxes it. (So ironically, it only works when we don’t really need it).
Visual Park Assist must have now been in development for quite some time, and it’s clearly fundamentally flawed/ a difficult nut to crack. I have very little faith in it ever being as good as any reasonable USS, but by throwing a huge amount of resource in a turd-polishing exercise may eventually make it workable in most situations. Even if his happens, it makes you wonder if Tesla’s engineering culture is correct - they will have done something the hard way rather than any kind of elegant engineering. If also begs the question of whether this mindset also exists in other systems like FSD, or even something as simple as auto-wipers. A lot of people think Tesla will be the first to crack proper FSD, but I wonder if they’ve thought themselves into too many dead-ends (like visual Park Assist) to really make a cohesive system. They may be relying on brute force approach to papering over the cracks in a fundamentally flawed system, whilst someone else will come along with a more elegant solution.
Even the Cruise can't be used on sunny days as the wipers go like mad and can't be turned off
I lost it with the switch to Telsa Vision, aka remove a perfectly good radar in favour of a camera. Car worked mostly fine before that, the odd phantom braking here and there, etc. but it was generally trending better. Since Vision, every update either makes things worse or removes a feature. It's inexcusable to fundamentally change a product for the worse so badly after someone has bought it. I fully expect them to remove the USS support within a year, because we can't have people with older cars driving around with better functionality than the new stuff.
Let's look at all the fun regressions cars with radar have had to suffer through, I appreciated these have probably been done to death:
1. The adaptive cruise can no longer keep a good distance. When I first got the car, it maintained such a perfect distance I could feel the car in front change gear. They then loosened it, which was fine and I understand why people would want it to be more elastic. However, with Vision it requires constant baby sitting with the throttle. If you go down a hill, it'll open up a massive distance to the car in front. Once you reach the bottom and go back up, it'll charge up to the car in front and tailgate them. Which is odd, because on the flat if the car in front goes a little faster, Vision won't accelerate until they're way off in the distance. Then it'll speed up a little, then a little more, then a little more until it's caught right up to the car in front, then suddenly start slowing down again. So you have to give it a bit of throttle to keep up with the car in front so you mostly maintain constant distance.
2. Phantom braking... with a timer. I know some people don't get this too much, but with Vision any reasonable journey will have at least one minor phantom brake. Larger journeys will have more. Every so often I'll get a big one. It's also as if the braking is just based on a timer. If something appears in front, no matter how brief, it's given a 'severity' score. Low severity? Small braking for a second or two. High severity? Heavy braking for 10 seconds. The thing in front could be long gone, but it's still braking away until the timer has elapsed. You just have to gently lift the throttle to see if it's braking or not. If it is, depress the throttle fully again. No hard braking on the slight lift? Cruise can take over again.
3. Frontal collsion warning. I've set this to 'late' now, and it's mostly OK... ish. But oh my goodness is this thing ever over-sensitive. On 'normal' if anything in front brakes harder than a light slow down, you get a blaring siren. Even on late, it loves to freak out about parked cars on the side of the road.
4. Lane departure warning & correction. When I first got the car, you would at most just get an alert, and it was rare. Now, it grabs the wheel and try and push you back into lane, even if that lane is the oncoming one with a car in it. I've turned off one of these, and left the one that turns itself back on with every drive. Much better now, since it's just gentle nudge rather than full autopilot force torque. The thing is, it's only ever once actually picked up me straying out of lane when distracted. Every other time, and they're quite a lot on narrow country roads, is false. Greenery hanging over the edge of the road? Lane departure. Water making the side of the road look darker? Lane departure. Shadow from hedge? Lane departure. Actually shifting to the side of the road by accident? No warning.
5. Forced auto wipers. Auto wipers have always sucked, and they always will. But they weren't forced, and you could just control them manually. Not anymore! Even basic cruise control inexplicably requires them. If you keep the front camera area religiously clean, they don't engage too much on a dry sunny day with low sun. If you're driving along a road lined with trees, the shadows will trigger them though, dry or not. Of course if it's actually wet and you're getting spray, they won't engage. Honestly, the auto wipers can be downright dangerous. One time I was on the motorway and started to pass a lorry. It was dry, but there was spray on the road. As I started to pass, it was like I was suddenly driving through niagra falls, and the screen became opaque and the wipers of course didn't engage. So I had to frantically press the button to single wipe over and over, and it wasn't safe to look down and press the applicable wiper speed. Then just as I was out of the spray the car absolutely freaked out about no visibility, cruise turns off, the lot. Maybe, just maybe, it should have turned on the wipers...
6. Forced high beam. It was terrible when I got the car, it was terrible when they first forced it on with Vision, and it's still unacceptable now. It's not terrible and basically blinding/flashing everyone now - but it is still not fit for purpose. It'll dip and then full beam, dip, full beam, over and over for signs on the side of the road. If cars in the oncoming side are partially occluded by barriers, greenery, etc. then it'll happily blind them. Cars driving in the same lane mostly won't be blinded from the rear, but it can't always be guaranteed. And of course, always drive with full high beam in town with street lighting... No auto high beam is perfect, albeit the Tesla one is the worst on the market since 2012. The problem is you can't just manually shift into manual mode in situations where it doesn't work well.
7. I can't really blame this on Vision, and it might just be my car. But the indicators are less responsive switching from one direction to the other than they've ever been. Indicating off a roundabout is becoming quite hit and miss. I've even had my indicator stalk replaced.
8. Random freak outs. These are rare, but they used to never happen. Vision can just completely lose the plot and freak out and turn off if it thinks it can't see. There's two specific circumstances where this has happened with me. Cresting a hill in shadow, I think it just couldn't see very well and freaked out and turned off. The other happens every so often. If I dare to wash the windscreen with more than 1 squirt I'm playing with fire. The camera can't see through the 'rain' and freaks out and disengages. The wipers also go full speed... on a now dry screen. Just like with the phantom braking, I have to wait for the 'timer' to elapse before I can enable cruise / autopilot again. Otherwise the wipers will immediately go back to full speed due to the auto enforcement - regardless of how dry the screen now is.
For me, the big ones are the forced auto wipers and high beam. Mixed with all the other 'features' the car is deciding it can drive better than the driver, despite driving worse than a first-session learner driver in many cases. By forcing all of these things, you're no longer in control. The car is in control, and it's getting more brain damaged as time goes on. I used to rave and rave and rave about Tesla. At least one person got one as a result of my ravings. However, now whenever anyone asks I tell them 'don't get one' and tell them of my experiences. More than one person has decided against a Tesla as a result, and I know my experiences aren't new or novel. It's at the point where passengers are starting to get nervous because of the blaring sirens when there's no issue, and occasional heavy braking with sirens and again, no issue. I'm getting asked to 'go manual' even from people who aren't phased with spirited driving.
If these experiences don't tally with yours and you're thinking 'what an idiot' or 'his car is broken'. Know this, I used to think like you. I thought 'I never have any of that' and carried on blissfully unaware. If you keep your car long enough, sooner or later the software regressions are going to happen to you. I wish I sold mine when the second hand values were crazy, rather than in the tank like they are now.
Of course if you're reading this, and my car is for sale. This entire post is a work of fiction, the car is amazing. Pay whatever the asking is.
Let's look at all the fun regressions cars with radar have had to suffer through, I appreciated these have probably been done to death:
1. The adaptive cruise can no longer keep a good distance. When I first got the car, it maintained such a perfect distance I could feel the car in front change gear. They then loosened it, which was fine and I understand why people would want it to be more elastic. However, with Vision it requires constant baby sitting with the throttle. If you go down a hill, it'll open up a massive distance to the car in front. Once you reach the bottom and go back up, it'll charge up to the car in front and tailgate them. Which is odd, because on the flat if the car in front goes a little faster, Vision won't accelerate until they're way off in the distance. Then it'll speed up a little, then a little more, then a little more until it's caught right up to the car in front, then suddenly start slowing down again. So you have to give it a bit of throttle to keep up with the car in front so you mostly maintain constant distance.
2. Phantom braking... with a timer. I know some people don't get this too much, but with Vision any reasonable journey will have at least one minor phantom brake. Larger journeys will have more. Every so often I'll get a big one. It's also as if the braking is just based on a timer. If something appears in front, no matter how brief, it's given a 'severity' score. Low severity? Small braking for a second or two. High severity? Heavy braking for 10 seconds. The thing in front could be long gone, but it's still braking away until the timer has elapsed. You just have to gently lift the throttle to see if it's braking or not. If it is, depress the throttle fully again. No hard braking on the slight lift? Cruise can take over again.
3. Frontal collsion warning. I've set this to 'late' now, and it's mostly OK... ish. But oh my goodness is this thing ever over-sensitive. On 'normal' if anything in front brakes harder than a light slow down, you get a blaring siren. Even on late, it loves to freak out about parked cars on the side of the road.
4. Lane departure warning & correction. When I first got the car, you would at most just get an alert, and it was rare. Now, it grabs the wheel and try and push you back into lane, even if that lane is the oncoming one with a car in it. I've turned off one of these, and left the one that turns itself back on with every drive. Much better now, since it's just gentle nudge rather than full autopilot force torque. The thing is, it's only ever once actually picked up me straying out of lane when distracted. Every other time, and they're quite a lot on narrow country roads, is false. Greenery hanging over the edge of the road? Lane departure. Water making the side of the road look darker? Lane departure. Shadow from hedge? Lane departure. Actually shifting to the side of the road by accident? No warning.
5. Forced auto wipers. Auto wipers have always sucked, and they always will. But they weren't forced, and you could just control them manually. Not anymore! Even basic cruise control inexplicably requires them. If you keep the front camera area religiously clean, they don't engage too much on a dry sunny day with low sun. If you're driving along a road lined with trees, the shadows will trigger them though, dry or not. Of course if it's actually wet and you're getting spray, they won't engage. Honestly, the auto wipers can be downright dangerous. One time I was on the motorway and started to pass a lorry. It was dry, but there was spray on the road. As I started to pass, it was like I was suddenly driving through niagra falls, and the screen became opaque and the wipers of course didn't engage. So I had to frantically press the button to single wipe over and over, and it wasn't safe to look down and press the applicable wiper speed. Then just as I was out of the spray the car absolutely freaked out about no visibility, cruise turns off, the lot. Maybe, just maybe, it should have turned on the wipers...
6. Forced high beam. It was terrible when I got the car, it was terrible when they first forced it on with Vision, and it's still unacceptable now. It's not terrible and basically blinding/flashing everyone now - but it is still not fit for purpose. It'll dip and then full beam, dip, full beam, over and over for signs on the side of the road. If cars in the oncoming side are partially occluded by barriers, greenery, etc. then it'll happily blind them. Cars driving in the same lane mostly won't be blinded from the rear, but it can't always be guaranteed. And of course, always drive with full high beam in town with street lighting... No auto high beam is perfect, albeit the Tesla one is the worst on the market since 2012. The problem is you can't just manually shift into manual mode in situations where it doesn't work well.
7. I can't really blame this on Vision, and it might just be my car. But the indicators are less responsive switching from one direction to the other than they've ever been. Indicating off a roundabout is becoming quite hit and miss. I've even had my indicator stalk replaced.
8. Random freak outs. These are rare, but they used to never happen. Vision can just completely lose the plot and freak out and turn off if it thinks it can't see. There's two specific circumstances where this has happened with me. Cresting a hill in shadow, I think it just couldn't see very well and freaked out and turned off. The other happens every so often. If I dare to wash the windscreen with more than 1 squirt I'm playing with fire. The camera can't see through the 'rain' and freaks out and disengages. The wipers also go full speed... on a now dry screen. Just like with the phantom braking, I have to wait for the 'timer' to elapse before I can enable cruise / autopilot again. Otherwise the wipers will immediately go back to full speed due to the auto enforcement - regardless of how dry the screen now is.
For me, the big ones are the forced auto wipers and high beam. Mixed with all the other 'features' the car is deciding it can drive better than the driver, despite driving worse than a first-session learner driver in many cases. By forcing all of these things, you're no longer in control. The car is in control, and it's getting more brain damaged as time goes on. I used to rave and rave and rave about Tesla. At least one person got one as a result of my ravings. However, now whenever anyone asks I tell them 'don't get one' and tell them of my experiences. More than one person has decided against a Tesla as a result, and I know my experiences aren't new or novel. It's at the point where passengers are starting to get nervous because of the blaring sirens when there's no issue, and occasional heavy braking with sirens and again, no issue. I'm getting asked to 'go manual' even from people who aren't phased with spirited driving.
If these experiences don't tally with yours and you're thinking 'what an idiot' or 'his car is broken'. Know this, I used to think like you. I thought 'I never have any of that' and carried on blissfully unaware. If you keep your car long enough, sooner or later the software regressions are going to happen to you. I wish I sold mine when the second hand values were crazy, rather than in the tank like they are now.
Of course if you're reading this, and my car is for sale. This entire post is a work of fiction, the car is amazing. Pay whatever the asking is.
I think there is general agreement that location and model has some bearing on how cars behave. lord knows why. Dirty rain, gantries, bridges, road surfaces, who knows. From my experience, software updates must take some blame. When radar was first removed, AP/TACC drives were better than with radar. The same is not true now. I’ve never had a serious PB in three and half years. Plenty of minor brakes but more so now. My wipers have been OK on the whole. AHB has improved for me. It was unusable rubbish for 3 years. Now, it’s just about usable but not as good as any other car I’ve owned. It still take too long to bring up high beam, dips for bend chevrons and rear reflectors on parked cars. Even my wife’s cheap e-Peugeot doesn’t do that.
I can’t disagree with anything you’ve said, because there is no doubt it’s all true for you and the bottom line is, it shouldn’t be!
Tesla Vision has, I’m afraid, become tunnel vision!
SalisburySam
Active Member
On the other hand, I still like my 2018 M3 LR RWD. With the exception of the indefensible and ever annoying phantom braking, the Wipers and High Beams are hardly great but at least ok. And I’m not forced to use either one. The comments of @boogle are dead on and the key reason I’ve avoided TeslaVision and remained on the last version of software (v2022.20.8) that still supports my paid-for and working radar. I have none of the mandatory issues. I’m willing to concede no more of the vehicular control to TroubleVision at this point.
I do find the tesla vision related comment’s interesting. My experience is that I have far far far less issues with phantom braking with the latest software than I did with 2022.20.X.
Also auto high beam being significantly upgraded since then.
That said, I don’t know what the answer is because once you update, you can’t go back if you do have problems.
Also auto high beam being significantly upgraded since then.
That said, I don’t know what the answer is because once you update, you can’t go back if you do have problems.
