MarcG
Active Member
This is how earlier (major) FW versions used to behave. Unfortunately, and likely due to the recent accidents that received a lot of media attention, the AP system went from what you describe to nanny-mode...
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Hold Steering Wheel every 20-25 seconds?
- Thread starter jsimon77
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- Autopilot Tesla Inc.
This is how earlier (major) FW versions used to behave. Unfortunately, and likely due to the recent accidents that received a lot of media attention, the AP system went from what you describe to nanny-mode...
Why is it special? There is no precedent. None. It would require a massive rethink of the law in terms of accountability, insurance, public perception, everything. Every serious accident would result in a massive investigation into the cause because it's not a case of 1 driver got it wrong and we're all different, its because a computer got it wrong and there are thousands of them exactly the same.
I'n not saying that society as a whole wouldn't be better if we allowed it, but the barriers to get there are enormous and thats beside the technology
tescroft
In Musk, we trust.
Drivers can't do either. Almost all human drivers take risks and drive in a way that it would lead to an accident if something unexpected would be around the corner or behind the hill.
tescroft
In Musk, we trust.
The main problem is that the systems today cannot handle some 'obvious' situations like lane dividers, static objects and road works.
If these problems are solved, we're dealing with way more sophisticated situations that often also would also cause a human driver to crash.
Human drivers also crash in a lot of simple situations like stop and go traffic because they're not attentive. This kind of crashes are already solved by automatic systems today. We will see a situation where computer systems will overall cause less accidents, but still fail in some edge cases. In contrast to that, humans will forever fail in some easy situations because they are distracted or have overseen other traffic.
If these problems are solved, we're dealing with way more sophisticated situations that often also would also cause a human driver to crash.
Human drivers also crash in a lot of simple situations like stop and go traffic because they're not attentive. This kind of crashes are already solved by automatic systems today. We will see a situation where computer systems will overall cause less accidents, but still fail in some edge cases. In contrast to that, humans will forever fail in some easy situations because they are distracted or have overseen other traffic.
I made the mistake of my life and updated without checking the forum first. If Tesla won't change it back I'll happily end the lease once it's up. I was going to buy the car out, but definitely not with a broken autopilot.
My point is specifically limited to the context of L3 autonomy and whether the driver can ever officially be allowed to be inattentive. If this is going to be allowed, then the L3 system needs to be able to handle something unexpected happening that it has to react to immediately without relying on an immediate takeover by the human driver.
This has nothing to do with L2 systems, which rely on an attentive driver, and generally will make everybody safer so long as the driver remains attentive. It also has nothing to do with L4 systems, which don't require operator takeover at all, so long as you stay on the roads they're allowed on and weather conditions they're designed to handle. Mostly my point is that until you have L4, you don't really have L3.
Because we have to move. We are allowing more deaths in traffic than in any other every day activity.
If any other activity would cause so many deaths annually, it would be forbidden.
You deserve a cookie my friend. No seriously, very correct comment. I am a pilot and a car reviewer. I can multi-task. I can pay attention and monitor the road without having my hands on the wheel.
barjohn
Member
The idiot minority have ruined it for us. The minority that were always going to.
Went for a drive and no longer found autopilot to be a useful driver assistance - it's a nuisance now.
Went for a drive and no longer found autopilot to be a useful driver assistance - it's a nuisance now.
Road deaths are falling everywhere because of other safety measures. Thats not an argument.
As I've asked before - show me a case where a computer is allowed to make a mistake which results in the death of someone? It doesn't happen.
barjohn
Member
Computers are used in so many things that you are not consciously aware of that can and do make mistakes that result in death that your lack of awareness prevents you from holding the computer responsible. One simple example is trains that are computer controlled. Sort of like our cars they have an engineer that is there to take control when things go wrong but just like our drivers they aren't always attentive and train wrecks happen. Fire control computers that are supposed to aim and hit one place but instead hit a friendly or civilian target by mistake. When an AEB system in a car fails they say the brakes failed when in fact it may be the computer system controlling the brakes. I'm sure there are many other examples but these were off the top of my head.
If I am a passenger in a (regular) car and the driver has just one hand on the wheel for much of the time then I will point out the risk factor (and then usually by mutual agreement I will not be his passenger again).
It is simply obvious that driving like this is risky and that many deaths have been caused by the driver not having full control of the vehicle.
No driving instructor or highway patrol officer would disagree with this.
The way that the Tesla Autopilot has been marketed and the way that Tesla salespeople demonstrate it to customers encourages the belief that Autopilot is safer than a human driver and it is perfectly acceptable to drive one handed or even no hands for some of the time.
The Autopilot is prone to glitches which cause the steering to pull hard to one side.
The power steering has no redundancy built in.
Mechanical failures are not uncommon.
Sudden hazards can occur on the highway.
How about you point out the flaws in my argument rather than simply calling me a basher!
It is simply obvious that driving like this is risky and that many deaths have been caused by the driver not having full control of the vehicle.
No driving instructor or highway patrol officer would disagree with this.
The way that the Tesla Autopilot has been marketed and the way that Tesla salespeople demonstrate it to customers encourages the belief that Autopilot is safer than a human driver and it is perfectly acceptable to drive one handed or even no hands for some of the time.
The Autopilot is prone to glitches which cause the steering to pull hard to one side.
The power steering has no redundancy built in.
Mechanical failures are not uncommon.
Sudden hazards can occur on the highway.
How about you point out the flaws in my argument rather than simply calling me a basher!
Road deaths are on the rise again worldwide.
Distracted driving is the most probable cause.
And if you drive normally with both hands gripping the wheel then you are very welcome to enjoy the added comfort.
Problem is though that human nature being what it is if Autopilot works perfectly 99% of the time then your attention will wander.
Same as a parent supervising their teenager to drive. First few lessons you are on full alert and ready to grab the wheel or yank the handbrake.
After about the 5th lesson and the pupil is driving really well then you are less ready.
KABOOM!!
WTF??
Why the hell did you do that son??
barjohn
Member
This video demonstrates the issue well: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-research-group-autopilot-crash-demo/
It is also specifically called out in the owner's manual as a situation that TACC will fail in. I think the video is positive in the sense that it educates people of the limitations, but they didn't discover some unexpected failure condition. I'm not sure how much clearer Tesla could be than saying that TACC will fail to stop if you're following a car that moves out of lane right before a stopped vehicle.
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