Home Charge Points Discussion and Suggestions [megathread]

[Mustard K]

WOW - thanks so much for all of this so far, Glan gluaisne you are a fountain of knowledge - this forum is lucky to have members like yourself.

Based on what you guys have said I'll go for the TWC but will try and find a local spark to do the install. I got an updated quote for the TWC installation from the chap that quoted on the Andersen and it came in at £1458 not including the £460 for the TWC. £950 + VAT of that was the labour. This included the following on the quote;

• Install 18th edition enclosure unit
• Install 30ma Type B DC sensitive RCD with 40 amp MCB.
• Install SWA cable from mains consumer unit to charger estimated 40 meters
• install type 2 40ka surge protection (optional)
• Supply Type B smooth DC sensitive RCD as mandated by BS7671

If anyone knows of a spark in the Manchester area I'm all ears

 

[MrBadger]

If you use a Tesla Approved Installer, you get 4 years warranty on the TWC rather than the standard 1 year. But approved installers do seem to come at a premium, but looks like you have a premium price there already so may not differ much.

Tesla UK - Find an Electrician

 

[Mustard K]

If you use a Tesla Approved Installer, you get 4 years warranty on the TWC rather than the standard 1 year. But approved installers do seem to come at a premium, but looks like you have a premium price there already so may not differ much.

Tesla UK - Find an Electrician

The quotes that I got both for the Andersen and the TWC were from the only Manchester approved Tesla installer - the difference in warranty is an interesting point that I hadn't come across...

 

[Glan gluaisne]

WOW - thanks so much for all of this so far, Glan gluaisne you are a fountain of knowledge - this forum is lucky to have members like yourself.

Based on what you guys have said I'll go for the TWC but will try and find a local spark to do the install. I got an updated quote for the TWC installation from the chap that quoted on the Andersen and it came in at £1458 not including the £460 for the TWC. £950 + VAT of that was the labour. This included the following on the quote;

• Install 18th edition enclosure unit
• Install 30ma Type B DC sensitive RCD with 40 amp MCB.
• Install SWA cable from mains consumer unit to charger estimated 40 meters
• install type 2 40ka surge protection (optional)
• Supply Type B smooth DC sensitive RCD as mandated by BS7671

If anyone knows of a spark in the Manchester area I'm all ears

The labour seems high, I've never seen a single charge point that's taken three or four days to install, or maybe two man-days. Has he included the cost of trenching the cable down the garden? That could well make a very big difference to the labour, if he's costed in hiring a minidigger. If the cable can be clipped to a wall or fence then that would reduce the cost a fair bit.

The same thing has been quoted twice above, the Type B RCD is included in the second line and again in the last line. That item costs £114 inc VAT and delivery, and a 40 A MCB costs less than £5. The enclosure costs around £20 or so. A surge protection device (SPD) is not required on a charge point installation, although would now be a requirement on a new installation main consumer unit. He's missed off the need for open PEN protection, in this case an earth electrode close to the charge point location.

Amending that list above, with prices for materials, gives:

• install 18th Ed (i.e. metal) enclosure - materials cost ~£55 (small indoor enclosure for MCB, tails, Henley blocks, glands etc)
  
• Install 30 mA Type B DC sensitive RCD with 40 A MCB - materials cost ~£120 maximum
• install SWA cable from mains consumer unit to charge point estimated 40 meters - 2 core 6mm² SWA costs ~£80 for 40m
• install earth rod, termination enclosure, RCD enclosure at charge point location - materials cost ~ £50

Total materials for 40m with an earth electrode, Type B RCD etc, comes to ~£305, plus the cost of the TWC at £460

 

[MrBadger]

That is alas, typical Tesla approved installer rates.

I've had quotes between £1200 and £1800 for a 15m surface run (one hole to drill in regular 4" brick) and a couple of ancillary items - meter and isolation switch, both of which would have added around £50-£60 total. £350 per half day seems typical, along with diamond encrusted RCD and enclosure.

The other stunt played on me by was hugely delaying the quote thinking that as we had the car we needed one quick at any price. Still happily charging at 10A even if once in a while it needs a bit more planning so no need to rush into a decision.

View that I took was the price difference between approved and regular electrician equated to a spare TWC or two.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

View that I took was the price difference between approved and regular electrician equated to a spare TWC or two.

That seems a sensible approach, as if anything is going to go wrong it's most probably going to be the charge point, or its connector/cable.

I've taken the same approach when building our house, because I couldn't get an extended warranty on stuff that I was DIY installing, I just bought spares. So far (touch wood) we've not had to use any of them, other than consumables, like air filters. My wife thinks it's a bit odd to have a cupboard full of spare light fittings, RCBOs, a water pump, air pump, etc.

 

[Mustard K]

The labour seems high, I've never seen a single charge point that's taken three or four days to install, or maybe two man-days. Has he included the cost of trenching the cable down the garden? That could well make a very big difference to the labour, if he's costed in hiring a minidigger. If the cable can be clipped to a wall or fence then that would reduce the cost a fair bit.

The same thing has been quoted twice above, the Type B RCD is included in the second line and again in the last line. That item costs £114 inc VAT and delivery, and a 40 A MCB costs less than £5. The enclosure costs around £20 or so. A surge protection device (SPD) is not required on a charge point installation, although would now be a requirement on a new installation main consumer unit. He's missed off the need for open PEN protection, in this case an earth electrode close to the charge point location.

Amending that list above, with prices for materials, gives:

• install 18th Ed (i.e. metal) enclosure - materials cost ~£55 (small indoor enclosure for MCB, tails, Henley blocks, glands etc)
  
• Install 30 mA Type B DC sensitive RCD with 40 A MCB - materials cost ~£120 maximum
• install SWA cable from mains consumer unit to charge point estimated 40 meters - 2 core 6mm² SWA costs ~£80 for 40m
• install earth rod, termination enclosure, RCD enclosure at charge point location - materials cost ~ £50

Total materials for 40m with an earth electrode, Type B RCD etc, comes to ~£305, plus the cost of the TWC at £460

Yeah - he has 2 men on a full day on the quote. This was also to be clipped along a wall - no trench digging is what was said when he attended. The Type B RCD I think was listed once to install and once to supply the unit.

I've tried a couple of sparks on checkatrade this morning and all are too busy!

 

[Glan gluaisne]

If you want an idea as to the work involved, then this lad has put together a good video showing the installation of a Zappi charge point:

This was an unusual install, as it includes using the new EV Ultra SWA cable, great for a Zappi install as it allows the supply current transformer data to be passed back down the same cable. The Zappi includes DC leakage protection, too, so doesn't require a Type B RCD, but other than that all the work in this install is typical of that needed for most charge points. He's working on his own in this video, and completes the whole installation and commissioning in less than a day. Commissioning a Zappi takes a bit longer, too, as it needs more setting up than a TWC.

Clipping the cable to the wall should take one person may be an hour or so, and might well be the longest part of the job. It's a job you could DIY if you wished, too, the hardest part is getting the cable run to look neat.

 

[HenryT]

Yeah - he has 2 men on a full day on the quote. This was also to be clipped along a wall - no trench digging is what was said when he attended. The Type B RCD I think was listed once to install and once to supply the unit.

I've tried a couple of sparks on checkatrade this morning and all are too busy!

I've sent you a message with details of the bloke I used.

 

[Jason71]

Yeah - he has 2 men on a full day on the quote. This was also to be clipped along a wall - no trench digging is what was said when he attended. The Type B RCD I think was listed once to install and once to supply the unit.

I've tried a couple of sparks on checkatrade this morning and all are too busy!

I would recommend the guy who did mine, Lee at:

https://www.morzak.co.uk/

but he is a good 90 minutes south of Manchester so not sure he would travel that far. I guess it depends how much work he has!

 

[MartiMart]

Bearing in mind any issues with grid load in the UK, I’ve opted for the Tesla charger. To qualify for the OLEV grant the approved charges must be ‘Smart’ and have the ability to have speed of charge / power supply reduced by electricity supplier remotely.

You never know what the future holds so I’ve left the grant alone and got the Tesla charger that the powers that be can’t tinker with

 

[Yachtsman]

Yes, photos would be very useful, please.

The Tesla wall connector is very good, probably one of the best units around, but, like many of these units, it is made for a global market, so cannot hope to meet all the different national requirements.

For example, in North America, their 220 VAC system is radically different to our 230 VAC system, as neither of the live connections is 220 V above earth, it's split, so that both live conductors are only 110 V above earth.

Here in the UK we have a system where the second live conductor, the neutral, is connected to the local earth, somewhere not too far from the property supply. This means that the remaining live terminal, the one we refer to as the line, is 230 V above earth, rather than the 110 V above earth they have in North America.

Because the charge point manufacturer doesn't know what sort of installation the unit will be fitted to, there's no easy way to make a one-size-fits-all design. For example, some rural houses in the UK have TT installations, where there is no PE provided on the incoming supply cable and the house installation has a local earth electrode, to which everything is connected. This type of installation doesn't require open PEN protection, as there is no PEN conductor.

Arguably, all charge points should include DC tolerant earth leakage fault protection, and some now do. I've just built one (see here: DIY charge point ), using off-the-shelf-parts, that has both open PEN and DC tolerant earth leakage fault protection, and there are several other makes of charge point available in the UK now that have all the required protection built in. I don't know for sure, but I believe that the next generation of Tesla wall connector may have integral protection, although I've not yet read the spec for it.

Glan, please read the PM sent earlier. Photos here.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

The incoming supply you have is TN-S, with the PE being connected to the incoming cable sheath, rather than TN-C-S, where the incoming cable doesn't have a PE conductor, but provides that connection as a shared one with the neutral. The incoming PE is still connected to neutral, though, further back along the low voltage supply grid. The same rules apply, as far as a charge point is concerned, to both TN-S and TN-C-S.

The RCD shown is a Type AC, so has no tolerance for either pulsating AC, DC or high frequency AC. I can't see the MCB for the charge point, is it the 40 A one marked as being the shower?

The charge point installation looks neat enough, the conduit protecting what is probably 6mm² T&E inside is OK for that location.

 

[Yachtsman]

The incoming supply you have is TN-S, with the PE being connected to the incoming cable sheath, rather than TN-C-S, where the incoming cable doesn't have a PE conductor, but provides that connection as a shared one with the neutral. The incoming PE is still connected to neutral, though, further back along the low voltage supply grid. The same rules apply, as far as a charge point is concerned, to both TN-S and TN-C-S.

The RCD shown is a Type AC, so has no tolerance for either pulsating AC, DC or high frequency AC. I can't see the MCB for the charge point, is it the 40 A one marked as being the shower?

The charge point installation looks neat enough, the conduit protecting what is probably 6mm² T&E inside is OK for that location.

No its the 32A one on the left.
Id assumed it was 40A &:noticed it was 32 when photographed.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

No its the 32A one on the left.
Id assumed it was 40A &:noticed it was 32 when photographed.

I can't tell positively from the photos, but if that is a 16th Edition split load consumer unit (which I think it probably is) then there probably isn't any RCD protection on that 32 A MCB and charge point circuit. Split load boards only had RCD protection on the power circuits, so electric shower, socket outlets, cooker etc, with the non-RCD protected side of the board running loads that (at the time) weren't thought to need RCD protection, like lighting circuits, where often the fittings would all be plastic and so have no exposed conductive parts.

When it became more commonplace to have metal decorative light fittings, the regs were changed (with the 17th Edition) so that consumer units had two RCDs, with one protecting one half of of the board, the other protecting the other half. The idea behind having two was that if one tripped, at least half the circuits in the house would still be OK.

Would it be possible to have a photo of the whole CU, please, to see if there's a second RCD off to one side?

One other thing, at the moment that consumer unit would probably fail a periodic inspection, as there is potentially finger access to the live busbar through that open slot between the RCD and the 32 A MCB. If it's a Crabtree Starbreaker board, as I think it may be, then this is less serious in practice, as the busbar is reasonably well protected (Starbreaker MCBs plug into sockets on their special busbar). Blanking plates just clip in and only cost a few pence and as well as making the unit safer they also help keep the spiders out . . .

 

[Country Boy]

I have 2 charge points, an original Zappi and a cheapo basic unit. The Zappi has lots of bells and whistles, but never really used all the facilities. Only thing I am using on the zappi is the hardwired turn on for E7 and the current limiting so I don't pop the 100A fuse....

The M3 is on the cheapo, and SWoMBO's Ioniq is on the Zappi.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

In case anyone is curious as to the difference between the (slightly oddball) Crabtree Starbreaker MCBs, and standard MCBs (the latter being interchangeable in pretty much any board, the former can only be used in Starbreaker boards), I've just dug out a couple of 32 A ones for comparison.

This is what a Starbreaker MCB looks like, next to a standard type (in this case a Wylex). Note that there is no screw terminal for the busbar on the Crabtree Starbreaker MCB:

This is what the two look like side-on. Note the metal tab poking out the bottom of the Starbreaker MCB on the left, that plugs into the line bus bar:

Finally, here's a photo of some blanking plugs, that should be fitted to any open holes remaining in a CU front panel. They are less than 50p for a pack: Axiom MCB Blank 4 Module Plastic

 

[Yachtsman]

I can't tell positively from the photos, but if that is a 16th Edition split load consumer unit (which I think it probably is) then there probably isn't any RCD protection on that 32 A MCB and charge point circuit. Split load boards only had RCD protection on the power circuits, so electric shower, socket outlets, cooker etc, with the non-RCD protected side of the board running loads that (at the time) weren't thought to need RCD protection, like lighting circuits, where often the fittings would all be plastic and so have no exposed conductive parts.

When it became more commonplace to have metal decorative light fittings, the regs were changed (with the 17th Edition) so that consumer units had two RCDs, with one protecting one half of of the board, the other protecting the other half. The idea behind having two was that if one tripped, at least half the circuits in the house would still be OK.

Would it be possible to have a photo of the whole CU, please, to see if there's a second RCD off to one side?

One other thing, at the moment that consumer unit would probably fail a periodic inspection, as there is potentially finger access to the live busbar through that open slot between the RCD and the 32 A MCB. If it's a Crabtree Starbreaker board, as I think it may be, then this is less serious in practice, as the busbar is reasonably well protected (Starbreaker MCBs plug into sockets on their special busbar). Blanking plates just clip in and only cost a few pence and as well as making the unit safer they also help keep the spiders out . . .

Sorry Glan, ive not had a chance to take another photo yet. I need to move the car out of the garage & close the garage door to get access to the CU & ive not been out for a couple of days.
The idiot electricians positioned it in an impossible place.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

No worries, there's no immediate risk from what I can see, it's just a matter of making the installation as safe as it should be and compliant with the regs. The Tesla wall connector does have some integral protection, and I believe that's deemed to be enough when it's used in the USA, it's just that here in the UK any installation has to comply with the safety regs in place at the time the work takes place.

There's also a LOT of confusion within the electrical trade as to what is and is not needed, probably because actually understanding the wording in Section 722 of BS7671:2018 Amendment 1 isn't as easy as it could be, and I don't think that the Part P accreditation bodies have yet produced a simple and easy to use interpretation guide to this section. Most electricians tend to rely on the easy to read guidance notes, rather than the rather dry wording in the regs themselves, too.

"Droning John Ward" did produce a YouTube video back in May this year, covering all the options for complying with the new version of Section 722. It goes on a bit:

John Ward has also produced an earlier video on Section 722, that covers pretty much all the options for connecting an EV charge point:

 

[Yachtsman]

No worries, there's no immediate risk from what I can see, it's just a matter of making the installation as safe as it should be and compliant with the regs. The Tesla wall connector does have some integral protection, and I believe that's deemed to be enough when it's used in the USA, it's just that here in the UK any installation has to comply with the safety regs in place at the time the work takes place.

There's also a LOT of confusion within the electrical trade as to what is and is not needed, probably because actually understanding the wording in Section 722 of BS7671:2018 Amendment 1 isn't as easy as it could be, and I don't think that the Part P accreditation bodies have yet produced a simple and easy to use interpretation guide to this section. Most electricians tend to rely on the easy to read guidance notes, rather than the rather dry wording in the regs themselves, too.

"Droning John Ward" did produce a YouTube video back in May this year, covering all the options for complying with the new version of Section 722. It goes on a bit:

John Ward has also produced an earlier video on Section 722, that covers pretty much all the options for connecting an EV charge point:

Manage a photo of the CU glan, itvis a crabtree unit.