Home Charging in an Old Home

[randynotcandy]

Hey all,

First and foremost, my knowledge of electrical is close to zero. As I'm doing my research about installing a home charger, I realized how much knowledge is in this forum. I really need help regarding installing a home charger. I'm not sure if it's even possible to do a 220V in my home as it is an old house.

As soon as I find out whether my house can accommodate a 220V charge, I'm planning on purchasing a Model Y.

I attached a picture of my panel at the home I'm currently living in. I'm renting the house so it is not possible to upgrade the whole panel.

Please let me know whether installing a 220V is possible in this scenario as I attached a picture of the panel.

Thank you so much for all the help.

 

[Wshowell]

You’re in LA so maybe just use the basic 120V system?. We have a second house in the mountains and so far the 4 MPH charging gets us what we need When we stay there and on the way back to our main house we just stop at a Supercharger. 40 Miles per night would fulfil our needs at home even although it would make long trips a little bit of a hassle.

 

[randynotcandy]

Thank you for the reply!

I was thinking about that too but I do commute about 50 miles a day from Pasadena to Manhattan Beach for work. Do you think 120V is doable?

At first I was thinking of relying on superchargers as there is one near me but I heard it's not too good for the car to be constantly being put on a supercharger.

 

[The_Observer]

There seems like one more space for a circuit breaker, so it might be possible to add a tandem breaker for a 240V connection, something like 30 amps? Not sure if that's going to be safe electrical wise.

 

[Wshowell]

Thank you for the reply!

I was thinking about that too but I do commute about 50 miles a day from Pasadena to Manhattan Beach for work. Do you think 120V is doable?

At first I was thinking of relying on superchargers as there is one near me but I heard it's not too good for the car to be constantly being put on a supercharger.

I think you’d Should try it out. With a Y having massive range and the Supercharger speeds so fast now, you may find that only on rare occasions will it not be sufficient. A few key points. Whatever outlet you’re going to be using, you’ll be putting a lot of stress on it. I replaced our cheap $2 outlet with a $15 “hospital grade” outlet that is designed for constant use and abuse like what you’ll be doing to it. This makes it safer and should be more reliable too. I also have a long run to get to our car so I’m using an Industrial grade extension cord. If you’re not making a run then just upgrading the plug I think is a good idea. See pic. Also, look into the EV electric rates and rebates. We are on discounted rates with both PGE and SCE and they have both given us back rebates of $500 and $800 just for owing EVs. The 120V is less efficient besides slow, @ 15% of the energy used won’t go into your battery just due to heat loss. That’s not good but it’s also not a lot of dollars each year when you have a deep discounted EV rate.

 

[sduck]

I'd go with using 120v as much as possible, and then using supercharging maybe on weekends or when needed.

That's some seriously ancient stuff in there - I don't know how codes work where you are, but here you wouldn't be able to get anyone to touch that (legally) unless they were changing everything out. As far as adding stuff to what you've got - they don't make that stuff anymore, so good luck. You might want to talk to the owner about the options, and have an electrician look at it - maybe you can convince the owner to upgrade.

 

[1965Falcon]

Hard to see the brand of your box. In order to add a 240v circuit you need two open slots. You currently have two "singles" that might be able to be combined and then that would leave you enough room to add in the 240v circuit. But, first you need to do a load calculation to see if you have any capacity remaining in your 100 amp service. If you are lucky, you might be able to squeeze a 20 amp 240 in there. That would be a big improvement over a 120v 15amp charge. I'd recommend having an electrician do a load calculation and then see if breakers are available for that panel if you have any capacity.

 

[PoitNarf]

Panel looks small and quite full. You’ve also only got 100 amp service. It looks like the last breaker on the right is a two pole 50 amp circuit? Does that go to an electric dryer by any chance? If so you might be able to plug into the dryer outlet to charge.

 

[jrweiss98020]

Hey all,

I really need help regarding installing a home charger. I'm not sure if it's even possible to do a 220V in my home as it is an old house.

As soon as I find out whether my house can accommodate a 220V charge, I'm planning on purchasing a Model Y.

I attached a picture of my panel at the home I'm currently living in. I'm renting the house so it is not possible to upgrade the whole panel.

Please let me know whether installing a 220V is possible in this scenario as I attached a picture of the panel.

Yes, it is definitely possible, but your best bet would be to hire an electrician to upgrade your panel to a 200 Amp panel and install a dedicated 50 Amp charging circuit and outlet.

 

[jjrandorin]

Yes, it is definitely possible, but your best bet would be to hire an electrician to upgrade your panel to a 200 Amp panel and install a dedicated 50 Amp charging circuit and outlet.

I attached a picture of my panel at the home I'm currently living in. I'm renting the house so it is not possible to upgrade the whole panel.

.

Since OP is renting the home, OP should start with asking whoever they are renting it from if they are even OK with him doing anything with the home electrical at all (such as asking an electrician out, for example).

Even for 120, this OP needs to know what is connected to the circuit he would be charging the EV from on 120. After getting an Ok from the person that owns the home, then an electrician should be called out to see what is possible, should OP want to do that.

OP can investigate what is on the same circuit as the outlet they want to plug into by buying a simple *circuit tester from a big box store, and then turning off breakers until the circuit tester goes off, then seeing what outlets are off in the home.

(*something like this https://www.amazon.com/Sperry-Instr...keywords=circuit+tester&qid=1597362284&sr=8-5 )

If I were OP and was planning on living where I am for a while (and had been living there for a while), I might try to convince the owner to upgrade the electrical service. If I planned on staying there renting that home for quite some time, I might even offer to split it with the home owner. I wouldnt contact anyone to do any work at all without checking with the homeowner however, unless circumstances dictate the owner would likely not care (like renting from a parent, or something like that).

 

[1.21GW]

You need an upgraded panel then it is feasible

 

[jrweiss98020]

I'm renting the house so it is not possible to upgrade the whole panel.

Why is it "not possible"?

If you plan to stay there for a while, I can't believe the owner wouldn't let you do it if you paid for [part of] it.

If you don't plan on staying there, you'll probably have to do with 120V charging and Superchargers until you move.

 

[smatthew]

Yeah, that panel needs to go. Unfortunately, as a renter, that's a request (not a demand) you can make. The good news is everything is 20 amp breakers. You might be able to get away with charging using a 5-15P to 5-20R cheater and the 5-20P Tesla NEMA adapter.

 

[saltsman]

That looks like an old GTE-Sylvania-Zinsco panel - most commonly called a Zinsco Panel. The color coded single row of breakers gives it away. There should be a logo on the left side of panel plate that you removed to take the picture. I'd estimate this to be a mid-1960's vintage.

1) Zinsco panels are a known fire & electrical risk. It isn't FPE bad, but it still needs to be replaced.
2) I agree you need to contact the landlord before doing any work on the panel. Especially for your liability should there be a fire in the future. It is also to the property owners benefit to upgrade the panel so it's worth bringing it up. They may be unaware of the fire risk.
3) I'm not familiar with LA code or labor rates, but cost to replace the panel and bring it up to modern code would be ~$1000 down here, including the addition of CAFIC breakers. It's a pretty simple job that could be done in about two to three hours of labor. Cost for running an additional circuit for the Tesla charger would be dependent on cable length and complexity. If it were placed next to the electrical panel, I'd guess $250 or so. Make sure they install a commercial-grade NEMA 14-50 receptacle (read this).
4) Increasing the electrical service from the existing 100 Amps to the more common 200 Amps would take additional work from the electrical provider (LADWP?), but would likely be done at little to no cost here in Texas. Not sure if the meter ring or service wires would need to be replaced without looking at those. That could be an additional cost for the property owner.
5) If replacing the entire panel is a no-go with the landlord, you can add an additional circuit on the existing Zinsco panel. Slot number 2 is currently empty and would accommodate a double-pole tandem 50 Amp breaker like the one of the far right (Amazon). Alternatively, the existing double pole 20 Amp in the middle could be reduced to a tandem double pole 20 Amp which would free up a space for a double-pole tandem 50 Amp. [Single pole = 120V, Double pole = 240V. Normal = 1 breaker per slot (like the blue one), tandem = 2 breakers per slot (like the red and yellow ones)]

Hope this helps.

 

[arnolddeleon]

That looks like an old GTE-Sylvania-Zinsco panel - most commonly called a Zinsco Panel. The color coded single row of breakers gives it away. There should be a logo on the left side of panel plate that you removed to take the picture. I'd estimate this to be a mid-1960's vintage.

1) Zinsco panels are a known fire & electrical risk. It isn't FPE bad, but it still needs to be replaced.
2) I agree you need to contact the landlord before doing any work on the panel. Especially for your liability should there be a fire in the future. It is also to the property owners benefit to upgrade the panel so it's worth bring it up.
3) I'm not familiar with LA code or labor rates, but cost to replace the panel and bring it up to modern code would be ~$1000 including the addition of CAFIC breakers. It's a pretty simple job that could be done in about two to three hours of labor. Cost for running an additional circuit for the Tesla charger would be dependent on cable length and complexity. If it were placed next to the electrical panel, I'd guess $250 or so. Make sure they install a commercial-grade NEMA 14-50 plug (read this).
4) Increasing the electrical service from the existing 100 Amps to the more common 200 Amps would take additional work from the electrical provider (LADWP?), but would likely be done at little to no cost here in Texas. Not sure if the meter ring or service wires would need to be replaced without looking at those. That could be an additional cost for the property owner.
5) If replacing the entire panel is a no-go with the landlord, you can add an additional circuit on the existing Zinsco panel. Slot number 2 is currently empty and would accommodate a double-pole tandem 50 Amp breaker like the one of the far right (Amazon). Alternatively, the existing double pole 20 Amp in the middle could be reduced to a tandem double pole 20 Amp which would free up a space for a double-pole tandem 50 Amp. [Single pole = 120V, Double pole = 240V. Normal = 1 breaker per slot (like the blue one), tandem = 2 breakers per slot (like the red and yellow ones)]

Hope this helps.

Wrote everything I wanted to say originally and then some.

Panel upgrade in CA get pretty expensive pretty quickly. They seem start at around $3000 these days. I'm in the process of upgrading the panel on my rental property in Sunnyvale, CA and it almost $4000. If I owned this property that Zinsco panel would be gone already.

BTW I see some damage on the bus bar where it is open, there might be a reason that space is open.

Even just adding a 20A 240V would dramatically improve charging speed.

@saltsman I couldn't decode FPE

 

[user212_nr]

Thank you for the reply!

I was thinking about that too but I do commute about 50 miles a day from Pasadena to Manhattan Beach for work. Do you think 120V is doable?

At first I was thinking of relying on superchargers as there is one near me but I heard it's not too good for the car to be constantly being put on a supercharger.

No, 50 miles per day is not feasible on 120v. I'm not sure if you mean 50 miles round trip, or 100 miles, but neither case is possible.

It is not good about the supercharger, but it is better than nothing.

I attached a picture of my panel at the home I'm currently living in. I'm renting the house so it is not possible to upgrade the whole panel.

You had best tell the landlord to upgrade the panel or that you are moving out when your lease expires. Wiring like that does catch fire and you are the one living there. If the landlord is a reasonable person, he will understand that this is a necessary thing, unrelated to your purchase of the Model Y.

Whether or not you pay any $ toward this problem is up to you. Seriously, consider moving out.

$4,000 is a lot of money, but it is part of owning a house, to make such repairs on a regular (30 year) basis. It is part of what you pay in rent, and you may have ability to withhold rent depending on how your lease is written.

See here that your electrical panel (Zinsco) is a fire risk.

How Do I Know if My Electrical Panel Is Out of Date? | Jeremy Electrical

What to do if You Have a Zinsco Panel in Your Home

 

[saltsman]

Wrote everything I wanted to say originally and then some.

Panel upgrade in CA get pretty expensive pretty quickly. They seem start at around $3000 these days. I'm in the process of upgrading the panel on my rental property in Sunnyvale, CA and it almost $4000. If I owned this property that Zinsco panel would be gone already.

BTW I see some damage on the bus bar where it is open, there might be a reason that space is open.

Even just adding a 20A 240V would dramatically improve charging speed.

@saltsman I couldn't decode FPE

Good eye on the potential bus bar issue! Hard to tell from the photo but you might be right. It needs to be checked out for sure.

Got carried with my acronyms. FPE = Federal Pacific Electric , aka “Stab-Lok”. Those panels are notoriously dangerous. Known to fail up to 65% of the time. The company even falsified the UL labeling on the box. Worse is they sold a bazillion of them and they are everywhere.

From what I know, the issue is the Zinsco breakers themselves. Supposedly, if you replace the originals with new all-copper breakers, the risk of fire is greatly diminished. But then, for the same cost, you could just swap to a modern Square-D box.

Bottom-line, the panel needs to be upgraded. Hopefully OP can convince the property owner to do it for safety reasons - or at least split the cost.

 

[Dmagyar]

Loving the optimism that the homeowner can be convinced to upgrade the panel at potentially $4,000....Most homeowners are reluctant to spend money for a house where the service is adequate, and so their renter can charge their car... If I were the OP, I’d start looking for another place to live where at least they had a 200 amp service. I’d spend my money on supercharging until I moved...

 

[RedModel3]

GAAAAHHH!! OY, that is one crazy panel. Seriously, your best option might be to move. Here's my experience.

My previous house was built in 1930 with knob and tube wiring, some of which was still in place. There is a 100 amp panel currently in that house. When I first tried to charge my Volt at an outdoor outlet, the circuit kept tripping. I called my very trusted electrician and discussed all my options, since I knew I'd be getting a Tesla eventually. In order to charge for a Tesla, I would have had to upgrade the panel to 200 amps, and in Nashville I probably would have had to upgrade all the other wiring in the house. So I opted not to do that, but that didn't solve the problem of the tripping circuit. There was room to install a dedicated outdoor 120 circuit, and I was able to charge the Volt for two years with no problems. At the very least, you might want a dedicated circuit.

But a Volt is not a Tesla, and you need faster charging. I knew for two years that I was going to move when I got my car, for reasons in addition to the fact that I wasn't going to spend so much money to upgrade all the wiring in my house just to charge my car. Even at my 'new' house, built in 1964, I almost burned the house down the second night I tried to charge. My electricians were able to find the problem - some work done 15 years previously where they connected a 50 amp sub-panel with a 10 amp wire.

The bottom line is that electrical systems are nothing to take lightly. You absolutely must discuss this with your landlord. (My old house is now a rental, but no one has an electric car.) Hopefully he/she will agree to at least get an electrician out there to tell you what your options are. If upgrading is out of the question, then you have to consider if where you live is more important than owning a Tesla. In my case, the Tesla won, but I'm better off for so many reasons.

 

[saltsman]

Loving the optimism that the homeowner can be convinced to upgrade the panel at potentially $4,000....Most homeowners are reluctant to spend money for a house where the service is adequate, and so their renter can charge their car... If I were the OP, I’d start looking for another place to live where at least they had a 200 amp service. I’d spend my money on supercharging until I moved...

But then again, most homeowners would rather not have their property burn down due to an electrical fire either. It all depends. If the landlord flat out refuses, I think I'd try to find one that was more accepting of the responsibility to maintain the property and my safety.

I still don't see the $4K cost. Just for fun, I ran the numbers on Square-D Homeline, shipped from Home Depot.
1 $104.93 40 circuit panel (20 spaces) 200 Amp Service HOM2040M200PC
10 $4.10 20 Amp breakers HOM120CP
2 $9.62 50 Amp 2-pole HOM250CP (includes a new 50 amp for the Tesla)
1 $9.62 20 Amp 2-pole HOM220CP
$174.79 Total

My guess is LA Country code would not require CAFCI on house this old. If you want to move to a full-on 2020 code compliant box with whole home surge supressor:
1 $104.93 40 circuit panel (20 spaces) 200 Amp Service HOM2040M200PC
10 $41.65 20 Amp CAFCI breakers HOM120PCAFIC
2 $9.62 50 Amp 2-pole HOM250CP (includes a new 50 amp for the Tesla)
1 $9.62 20 Amp 2-pole HOM220CP
1 $76.33 Square D Homeline 50 kA P Whole House Surge Protective Device HOM250PSPD
$626.62 Total

Labor would be three hours max. Looks like $100 per hour is the going rate in LA.
Add $100 for a Hubbell 9450a NEMA 14-50 receptacle and box installed at the panel.
I'm guessing $150 for permitting and inspection.

Even with the more expensive CAFCI breakers, with labor, permitting and 14-50 receptacle, you are still under $1,500 and NFPA 70 compliant for NEW constriction. This isn't a difficult job.