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[Glan gluaisne]

The Tesla unit uses a more expensive type of RCD than most/all other charger designs in the UK, and doesn't qualify for the OLEV grant so you miss out on that saving too.

Nothing different at all about the Tesla charge point as far as RCD provision is concerned, with the exception of those charge points that use some form of magic in order to (allegedly) get around the provisions in Section 722 of the regs. All charge points have to comply with Section 722, and that normally means either installing an expensive Type B RCD, or using a fairly cheap (typically ~£18) Type A RCBO with an earth electrode. The latter method is the one almost universally used, and will work just fine with a Tesla charge point.

 

[Grymbok]

Nothing different at all about the Tesla charge point as far as RCD provision is concerned, with the exception of those charge points that use some form of magic in order to (allegedly) get around the provisions in Section 722 of the regs. All charge points have to comply with Section 722, and that normally means either installing an expensive Type B RCD, or using a fairly cheap (typically ~£18) Type A RCBO with an earth electrode. The latter method is the one almost universally used, and will work just fine with a Tesla charge point.

I was going based on this post - #13 - and the discussion around it in that thread. As I didn't order the Tesla charger in the end I never looked in to it in detail and you may well be better informed, just thought I'd link where I got the idea from.

 

[MrBadger]

Type A RCBO

Which residual current device (RCD) should I use with my installation?
The standards for installing charge points state that every individual connector should be protected with an RCD that protects against direct current leaking. The Tesla Wall Connector does not measure DC current leaking, so an RCD Type B or a specific Type A-EV needs to be installed. National regulations can vary so always check with your local recommended electrician.

Type B is cheaper than a Type A-EV RCD. You can get type B around £110.

http://www.doepke.co.uk/download/Techpub-08.pdf

 

[Glan gluaisne]

Type Bs are cheaper that that now. I can get an LVE 40A Type B RCBO for around £80, so a great deal cheaper than they were even 6 months ago.

Still a lot more expensive than a Type A, though. I recently bought a few 40 A Type A RCBOs and they were around £18 each.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

I was going based on this post - #13 - and the discussion around it in that thread. As I didn't order the Tesla charger in the end I never looked in to it in detail and you may well be better informed, just thought I'd link where I got the idea from.

Nothing wrong with installing a charge point that doesn't have in-built DC sensing with just a relatively cheap Type A RCD/RCBO and an earth electrode. Cheap and easy thing to do. The cost of the earth electrode, box, clamp, cable etc is around £20 or so.

 

[Coly]

I went with tesla, it just looks better and I dont want the option of it being turned off remotely to help balance the load, which is ultimately where smart chargers are going (in my opinion).

A normal charger will output no more than 7kw as others have said due to not having 3 phase, so they are all much of a muchness. I'm lucky in that my best mate is an electrician, a few beers and a kebab will sort him out for half a days work. My job isnt a "standard" installation, so the prospect of saving £500 goes out the window as we have to run a cable from under the stairs, through the ceiling to outside. £460 + £100 in materials vs £860 with a £500 rebate + whatever I'm going to be charged by an independent for all the faff is a no brainer in my case. Hes doing my fuse board at the same time.

 

[Evilted]

Why is the Tesla £1081? The unit is £460 so that means it’s over £600 to install!

I didn’t make the quote just shared it because I thought it might help people

There are some extras required which have been covered previously. About £150 I think.
Most installs are about £450 so it’s no different it just isn’t offset by the OLEV grant when you’re getting the Tesla WC.

I should also note that there’s an 18w lead time on the Zappi and 12w on the Anderson.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

Some of these installation costs look very high to me. I was chatting to a local electrician yesterday evening and asked what his rates were at the moment. For small jobs, he charges £55 for the first hour, then £35/hour after that (no VAT, as he's not VAT registered). The only costs on top of that would be for materials, and for a typical install (excluding the price of the charge point itself) the materials cost would be unlikely to be greater than about £100.

Assuming half a day's work (unlikely to be any longer for a typical installation) then that gives an installation labour and materials cost of ~£260.

I find it really hard to understand why a typical charge point installation would cost as much as £450, TBH. I suspect that a view is being taken that anyone that can afford to buy a Tesla can afford to pay maybe double the normal labour rate. Bit like buying stuff for boats. When I owned a yacht I'd always buy stuff from the fishing boat suppliers, as they were half the price for the same stuff bought from a yacht chandler.

 

[Grymbok]

I paid a flat £400 for installation. The engineer had to come back a second time due to problems. I think any time when you're paying a flat fee rather than hourly there's going to be some cushion for the tricky jobs and repeat visits.

Also I was using the supplier's preferred engineer, who had to travel an hour to get to me.

 

[arg]

Nothing wrong with installing a charge point that doesn't have in-built DC sensing with just a relatively cheap Type A RCD/RCBO and an earth electrode. Cheap and easy thing to do. The cost of the earth electrode, box, clamp, cable etc is around £20 or so.

I think you have mixed two issues in this (and preceding comments upthread). The RCD requirement is independent of earthing, although both changed from 1st Jan 2019.

For RCDs, it must now be either Type B or Type A plus a 6mA DC detection device (previously just a Type A required). Most chargepoint manufacturers apart from Tesla have started including the DC detection device in their chargepoints since the beginning of this year when the requirement in the regulations changed. There is also the RCD marketed as "Type EV" which is in effect a Type A RCD and the DC detection combined. So a Tesla chargepoint needs either the Type B or the "Type EV". It had become common to use the "Type EV" since they were no more expensive than Type B and arguably more useful; however, Type B prices have come down significantly while the Type EV still seems to be around £300. This could well be the source of the high cost in these install quotes.

Earthing is now prohibited from using the PME earth for an outdoor chargepoint except where one of three special cases apply (previously there was an exemption if none of those three was "reasonably practical", which was used by unscrupulous installers who regarded £10 and 15 minutes work as impractical). Hence in most cases an earth rod is required. As we have previously discussed here, a few of the chargepoint manufacturers have started claiming that their chargepoints meet special case (iii) and so don't need an earth rod, even though that case (iii) requires either an earth rod or magic. There's now a proposed amendment to introduce a fourth special case which will, if passed, legitimise these chargepoints.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

My bad, should have been Type B etc. I blame David Savery for bum information on his Tesla charge point installation video (although I see he's now corrected the RCD error in the text). A 40A DP Type B RCBO is now ~£80, BTW, so a great deal cheaper than they were a few months ago. My guess is that the price of Type B's will continue to reduce. I just hope they come down to 2 module width. The 3 module width of the smallest ones available is still a bit too big, really.

 

[MrBadger]

Out of curiosity, anyone connected up a TWC by plugging into a 32A commando socket? 32A commando would be protected by Type B RCD but probably not earth rodded.

That would allow me to get consumer unit and commando fitted by regular electrician without them being put off by EV charging regulations. Too far away from car to be able to use for outside charging, gov.

Then a nice 10m long 32A commando 4mmsq H07RN-F extension cable (custom with power meter) as temporary hookup to TWC (although hard wired in)

Then when/if silly season on TWC installs dies down, I can get that properly hooked up.

Apart from probably over stepping the spirit of the regs, anyone see anything dangerous in this?

Its getting rather tiresome either getting quoted £1200-1400 for install or an electrician saying either 2 days work or not until sometime Jan. Its 1 or 2 holes to be drilled in 4" brick and approx 10m cable run.

Or maybe Jeremy can just send his electrician this way and hopefully do it properly...

 

[Glan gluaisne]

Why can't you just get any local electrician that's a member of one of the Part P cartels to do the installation? Most will be around the price I quoted earlier, I expect, around £160/half day.

There's no requirement for anything special, other than having access to an EVSE test box to allow the installation to be properly tested. From what I've read here, it seems that there are some approved installers who are breaching the regs by failing to perform the mandatory safety and functional checks on charge point installations, anyway, perhaps because they don't have an EVSE test box.

If push came to shove you could borrow my test box, as I don't exactly use it every day. It has a 13A outlet on the front, so that any electrician can plug his MFT in to do the required checks, although TBH, all that really needs to be plugged into this outlet is a test plug (one with LEDs on the top), just to prove that L, N and PE are all the right way around and connected when the charge point turns on. The most useful bit of the test box are the four switches, that allow the charge point to be functionally tested without being plugged in to a car. These simulate the vehicle comms side, and allow the "plugged in", "request for power", "CP short" and a "Diode test". These are essential tests to do, in my view, as they not only show that the charge point is working correctly, but more importantly they show that it will shut down in the event of a fault condition.

 

[MrBadger]

oh the JUST word.

Local decent electricians not wanting to charge less than £350 half day (and estimate 2 days - no its not a difficult job) seem a very rare breed around here or not need to book 8 weeks in advance. And even rarer are Tesla installers not wanting to charge less than £1200 to install a customer supplied TWC.

If your electrician at £55/35hr is willing to drive an hour each way to do this properly, then please pass on his details...

 

[Glan gluaisne]

I'll no doubt see him in the pub over the weekend so can ask. How far away are you from Shaftesbury, Dorset?

An alternative may be to ask if your local building control department are able to do as they are supposed to by law, and provide a Part P approval for work done by a non-part P chap. There are quite a few non-Part P, but perfectly competent, people around, as the Part P cartels will not allow anyone who is not employed/self-employed to remain members, even if they are competent. I'm in that category, as a former lecturer who used to teach electrical engineering science to apprentice electricians. Because I'm retired none of the cartels will accept me as a member (even if I was prepared to pay their fees).

 

[MrBadger]

Thought you were Andover way, but it's much further - too far 80 miles and hour and half this time of day. Even worse rush hour.

I'll see what building control say as my previous regular electrician is no longer NICEIC registered but more than capable and qualified to do the work. He just cannot sign it off under competent persons scheme.

edit - £297 or £393 depending on whether they treat it as a new installation.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

We're roughly halfway between Salisbury and Shaftesbury, a couple of miles or so from the Dorset border, but the chap I'll be seeing over the weekend lives in Shaftesbury, so probably a bit too far away.

Well worth seeing if your chap that's no longer in one of the Part P cartels can do the job, and then try to get building control to approve it. The chances are that he'd do a better job than one of the installers, and for a better price most probably. Yell if you want to borrow the charge point test box.

 

[ejvee]

Anyone using MATT:E SV-EVPC box instead of earth rod?
My installer says it's better than earth rod , but costs £118 extra.
(He came with the wrong ROLEC unit today, untethered, with wrong lead, though my order was for tethered Rolec!! Quite annoyed)

 

[Glan gluaisne]

Anyone using MATT:E SV-EVPC box instead of earth rod?
My installer says it's better than earth rod , but costs £118 extra.
(He came with the wrong ROLEC unit today, untethered, with wrong lead, though my order was for tethered Rolec!! Quite annoyed)

Interesting device. The manual is here: https://matt-e.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/SP-EVCP-installation-sheet-v1.2-Oct-2019-A5.pdf

It seems to provide protection based on sensing the CPC voltage, in accordance with this get-out in Section 722.411.4.1 :

(iii) Protection against electric shock is provided by a device which disconnects the charging point from the live conductors of the supply and from protective earth in accordance with Regulation 543.3.3.10 l(ii) within 5s in the event of the voltage between the circuit protective conductor and Earth exceeding 70 V rms. The device shall not operate if the voltage exceeds 70 V rms for less than 4 s. The device shall provide isolation. Closing or resetting of the device shall be by manual means only. Equivalent functionality could be included within the charging equipment

First bit of kit I've seen that does this. Seems OK as an approach to me, and simpler from an installer's perspective.

 

[ejvee]

Interesting device. The manual is here: https://matt-e.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/SP-EVCP-installation-sheet-v1.2-Oct-2019-A5.pdf

It seems to provide protection based on sensing the CPC voltage, in accordance with this get-out in Section 722.411.4.1 :



First bit of kit I've seen that does this. Seems OK as an approach to me, and simpler from an installer's perspective.

My installer said it has only recently come to market and he installed 3 this week.
His original installation quote for my Rolec tethered including earth rod was £395 after govt. grant.
He said that included only one earth rod. If the transformer doesn't pick it, he has to keep digging 3 metre apart and would cost additional.(that's what I understood)
This kit avoids that scenario