How are Europeans liking Model 3?

[banned-66611]

The Chevy Bolt is (or was; I don't know about current status) sold as the Opel Ampera-e in Europe.



This was a test with (non-stock?) 20-inch tires. He posted a follow-up video with tests using 19-inch tires, and the results were much better (but still not great). I don't have a URL handy, and I don't recall exactly where it fell, but I seem to recall the results improving to about the same level as the Hyundai Kona. AFAIK, he hasn't tested with the stock 18-inch wheels.

The Ampera was discontinued years ago.

The old old Leaf a bit noisy but they improved the 30kWh one, and the 40 is a big step up from that.

Let's see what Bjorn does. Others have tried improving the door seals but to no effect. If be amazed if he gets it to Leaf/Niro levels.

 

[StealthP3D]

The Ampera was discontinued years ago.

The old old Leaf a bit noisy but they improved the 30kWh one, and the 40 is a big step up from that.

Let's see what Bjorn does. Others have tried improving the door seals but to no effect. If be amazed if he gets it to Leaf/Niro levels.

He will if he ditches the 20" wheels for something more normal.

 

[banned-66611]

He will if he ditches the 20" wheels for something more normal.

I'd be surprised if that fixes it, but let's see.

 

[StealthP3D]

I'd be surprised if that fixes it, but let's see.

Why do you doubt it? It's a well-known fact that low profile tires transmit a lot more road noise to the cabin. And 235/35/20 is ridiculously low profile. I hope Bjorn gets some aftermarket 18" wheels that fit over his ridiculously large Performance brakes. But I'm guessing he will get 19's (which will offer some relief from road noise but won't totally fix his noise issues).

 

[TeeEmCee]

Why do you doubt it? It's a well-known fact that low profile tires transmit a lot more road noise to the cabin. And 235/35/20 is ridiculously low profile. I hope Bjorn gets some aftermarket 18" wheels that fit over his ridiculously large Performance brakes. But I'm guessing he will get 19's (which will offer some relief from road noise but won't totally fix his noise issues).

Not really.
Low vs tall profile plays no direct role in the ride harshness, the flexibility of the sidewall does. While generally low sidewalls must necessarily be stiffer, that does not mean that taller ones are not.


If you look at the tires that come with OEM 18" wheels you'll see two things:

1. they're a low rolling resistance eco tire, far more so than the tires that come with the 20" wheels, i.e. they have a harder compound that does not deform as much (such as to not consume too much energy when flexing)

2. The tire is stretched on the rim (anybody here who has not curbed the 18's yet?). This is not by accident, the tread and wheel width are selected such that the tire stretches a bit. When it does that, the inner air pressure pressure plus the weight of the car are not sufficient to give the tire a bulge, therefore the sidewall does not have much ability to flex and less energy is spent on that (and the ride is harsh as a consequence).

Having driven them all, I do not feel that the 20" wheels do any worse on the rather choppy pavement around where I live. In fact I have had cars with 35 profile that felt a lot more supple than the Model 3 with 45 profile.

In this case, I believe a lot more of the vibration and harshness is transmitted due to the tire compound and sidewall geometry vs just sidewall height.

 

[banned-66611]

Why do you doubt it? It's a well-known fact that low profile tires transmit a lot more road noise to the cabin. And 235/35/20 is ridiculously low profile. I hope Bjorn gets some aftermarket 18" wheels that fit over his ridiculously large Performance brakes. But I'm guessing he will get 19's (which will offer some relief from road noise but won't totally fix his noise issues).

Even if that was true (it's not really) the gap is huge, and tyres alone aren't going to fix it.

 

[Devils son]

I think that most Europeans would have liked the car more as a hatchback. And I for one cannot understand why they did not make a ski hatch. As far as build quality, I think the difference with German cars is greatly overexaggerated. All in all a great car, but when the Model Y is on the market, I am sure it will outsell the Model 3.

 

[ggnykk]

Another European here (Belgian). Love the car, love the handling, love the acceleration, even love the paint ;-)

The only thing that's been disappointing so far, is TACC and autopilot. Had a few phantom braking events (scary with a car behind me), but even in its normal operation I don't like the way it drives. It's constantly cycling between acceleration and regen, often even lighting the brake lights. Since I hate driving behind someone who taps his brakes every 10 seconds (you never know when it's real braking or just another meaningless tap), I really don't want to be that kind of guy myself. Also, it's very inefficient. Cruise control is normally supposed to save energy, but I'm sure I use less energy with TACC off. Also, the transitions are not smooth. One moment you're accelerating, and then in a tenth of a second it switches to regen, and half a second later we're accelerating again. No anticipation, no smoothing, just binary reactions. I always try to smooth out the speed changes of the car ahead of me, but the Model 3 actually amplifies them. And if someone cuts in ahead of you, the car immediately brakes, creating dangerous situations and traffic jams behind you. Absolutely awful.

Lane change is also pretty bad, it's basically unusable. It often refuses to change even though there's plenty of space (but you're blinking so cars behind you start to accelerate in anticipation and then have to brake as you're not leaving the lane), and if you don't hold the blinker it sometimes actually jerks back mid-maneuver (for what possible reason would that EVER be considered safer than continuing the slow lane change?!). Also, the car sometimes brakes even though you're changing into an empty lane. Europeans normally change lanes a lot because we have to drive on the right whenever that lane is free. Middle and left lanes are only for overtaking. But with Model 3, you need a mile of free space to change to the right lane or it will refuse, brake, or both.

So basically, I just have AP as a gimmick to try once in a while, hoping it will get better, but not really using it as intended. I keep trying it, since I'm a bit of a geek and love technology, but I keep getting disappointed and turning it back off. I don't want people to think I drive this badly.

I just got 2019.8.3, haven't tried AP on that version yet.

Anyway, the rest of the car is absolutely great. Never regretted buying it, and I'm hardly driving our Merc anymore. Even though I have to drive more slowly (still above the speed limit, but not as much) to make it without recharging. It's worth the extra 10 minutes of travel time. (edit: My commute is 314 km, my Merc does the round trip at 160 km/h, the Model 3 makes it one way at around 140 km/h)

did you set the car following distance too close? Did you try setting it to like 6 or 7?

 

[michelcolman]

did you set the car following distance too close? Did you try setting it to like 6 or 7?

6 or 7? I don't think you've ever driven on a European highway. Even at 1, people are tailgating me and overtaking via the right because I'm leaving such a big gap.

Actually, 1 is pretty good as an average distance, but it should allow some flexibility when the car in front doesn't keep a constant speed. It shouldn't match every little bit of deceleration with an immediate switch to regen but just allow the distance to decrease temporarily while gently easing off on the gas. Mathematically, the derivative of acceleration should be continuous.

And if a car cuts in, that's not an emergency situation that needs to be corrected right away. Just ease off on the gas a little and gently let the distance increase naturally. Full regen with brake lights, not to mention real braking, actually makes a bad situation worse. This is how traffic jams are initiated and accidents are caused.

 

[banned-66611]

I think that most Europeans would have liked the car more as a hatchback. And I for one cannot understand why they did not make a ski hatch. As far as build quality, I think the difference with German cars is greatly overexaggerated. All in all a great car, but when the Model Y is on the market, I am sure it will outsell the Model 3.

People claim the ski hatch was to increase efficiency, but the Kona is a much better shape and only slightly less efficient. The Ioniq is even more efficient and has a less annoying rear door.

 

[srs5694]

I think that most Europeans would have liked the car more as a hatchback. And I for one cannot understand why they did not make a ski hatch. As far as build quality, I think the difference with German cars is greatly overexaggerated. All in all a great car, but when the Model Y is on the market, I am sure it will outsell the Model 3.

People claim the ski hatch was to increase efficiency, but the Kona is a much better shape and only slightly less efficient. The Ioniq is even more efficient and has a less annoying rear door.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, I believe that by "ski hatch," banned-66611 is referring to a fold-down part of the rear seat that enables skis or similar long skinny objects to be carried in the trunk with the rear seats otherwise up. This has nothing to do with the exterior shape of the car, although it wouldn't make much sense if the car had no behind-the-rear-seat storage.

In my experience, ski hatches are pretty uncommon; only one of the six cars I've owned or leased in my life has had one. (That car was a VW Golf, FWIW.) I'm far from certain, but my impression is that they're more common on European cars than on those designed and built in North America or Asia. That's not to say they aren't useful, but if my impression is correct, it might explain why the Tesla doesn't have one -- it's a feature that might just be "off the radar" for an American design team. If the feature is important to you, then enough people making Tesla aware of its desirability might make it available in future versions of Tesla vehicles.

 

[Alfred]

I am Swiss and took delivery of my Model 3 on 1 March (AWD, standard Aero). The car is of course as good to drive as most say.

In general I cannot second most seemingly frequent complaints:
Wipers worked perfectly in heavy and not so heavy rain.
Panel gaps are normal and no different than on other cars I saw. That opinion was seconded by others (more about that below)
Paint had two small faults, probably from transport. The cars were trucked shortly before delivery from Antwerp and local staff had hardly time to check, let alone doing work on them. No problem, that can't be fixed later.
I had no problems with water. Most cars I owned had more problems when opening doors or trunks, but I have to admit that my last car was 12 years old and not German...
I would though second the Belgian experience with TACC. It suffers badly from unpredictable breaking and irritating small accelerations/decelerations. Hard shadows and tunnels are sufficient to have to turn it off. The same is true as soon as in heavy traffic. I have yet to learn when it is usable.

WLAN, LTE and Bluetooth function perfectly. My phone (iPhone 8) works faultlessly and I so far never had to use a card. Remote switching of heating and charging etc. - no problems. It is also fun to prepare a route on the phone and send it to the car, walk down to the car and find the navigator switches on with the trip ready.

As the numbers of deliveries increased, Swiss Tesla Owners Clubs started to support deliveries in Zurich by offering a bit more handling instructions for those that did not feel at ease with the minimal training offered during delivery. I served myself two days in this way and could collect a few impressions from the interviews made in this way: These are anecdotal and not necessarily representative, but anyway:

- Quality of car and finish was a non-issue. If there was a patch to fix, that was noted and will be fixed by Tesla or a contractor as arranged by Tesla later.
- On panel gaps: one chap who had read all the terrible news from Germany went to compare and told me that Tesla looked actually better (to his surprise) than the German cars he compared it to. There is a lot of mythology to be studied in this realm.
- Apart from small transport damages I heard no further remarks. It is obvious that local deliveries came off trucks and local staff had little time to check cars thoroughly and that has its unavoidable consequences.

Interesting in a more general way

 

[ninpb]

6 or 7? I don't think you've ever driven on a European highway. Even at 1, people are tailgating me and overtaking via the right because I'm leaving such a big gap.

Actually, 1 is pretty good as an average distance, but it should allow some flexibility when the car in front doesn't keep a constant speed. It shouldn't match every little bit of deceleration with an immediate switch to regen but just allow the distance to decrease temporarily while gently easing off on the gas. Mathematically, the derivative of acceleration should be continuous.

And if a car cuts in, that's not an emergency situation that needs to be corrected right away. Just ease off on the gas a little and gently let the distance increase naturally. Full regen with brake lights, not to mention real braking, actually makes a bad situation worse. This is how traffic jams are initiated and accidents are caused.

Yup yup my top improvement wish is for AP to get more human real world coasting algorithms put in.

 

[StealthP3D]

Even if that was true (it's not really) the gap is huge, and tyres alone aren't going to fix it.

True, you need different wheels also. 18" tires cannot be mounted to 20" wheels. That change alone will make a huge difference in interior sound levels.

 

[Alfred]

Continued from above:
Interesting in a more general way was to have the opportunity to talk to many newcomers to electric cars. Surprising for me, as well as others in the same "duties" was the relatively high age of new electric car buyers (beyond 60) having ordered so early a locally as yet unknown car model - electric on top.

Unexpected was also the ease with everybody took to the innovative (panel oriented) operations. They explicitly lauded the simplicity of operation that they reckognized immediately as being far superior to a myriad of buttons scattered everywhere. In their words: "I do not need all that stuff anyway". This is the reality that escapes apparently most automotive journalists, but is known in the industry. One executive from VW once told me that they hate the plethora of features being asked for and then no one actually uses.
Less surprisingly, the more modest dimensions of the Model 3, were an important decision factor. The comment was: "Finally a Tesla that is "parking-conform".

Negative opinions from internet fora and in some of the automotive press, had apparently no influence on their attitude. Those reports were not read or discounted and they had made their own decision. Possibly the experience of aquaintances or neighbours with Models S or X was all that had mattered.

It is likely that the Model 3 will be very successful among Swiss compact limousine buyers. From the comments I would guess that the main factors might be or become:
- Superb handling and sporty feel on our winding, mostly moutainous roads;
- Compact dimensions;
- Yet easy on motorways, with still good range (well beyond any potential competitor);
- Solidly built out charging infrastructure, even beyond the Tesla network (CCS);
- Fully featured, yet simple to use;
- And last, but not least: "It is beautiful".

Funnily one more experienced buyer remarked: "You know what I say to all those silly enquirers asking why on earth I have bought an electric car? I always say: because it is beautiful. That stops them."

 

[Rex Kramer]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, I believe that by "ski hatch," banned-66611 is referring to a fold-down part of the rear seat that enables skis or similar long skinny objects to be carried in the trunk with the rear seats otherwise up. This has nothing to do with the exterior shape of the car, although it wouldn't make much sense if the car had no behind-the-rear-seat storage.

As an aside, there is an i1Tesla video about how to turn the rear center armrest into a ski hatch:

 

[lklundin]

Electricity is very expensive here as well, so the savings - if you pay the national average - are far smaller than what you might think. That's probably why it isn't mentioned very often.

This year I will be paying 0.25€/kWh (in Bavaria) for electricity (all costs included).

If supercharging is done only around 120 kW (or at 60kW), then that electricity costs 0.20 €/kWh, i.e. somewhat cheaper.

If a Tesla owner has their own roof, then mounting solar panels allows for a higher self-consumption of the produced electricity.

While it quickly becomes complicated to state how much of a benefit that is (depending e.g. on how much one parks at home during the day...), the return on the PV investment is improved by owning a BEV.

 

[voip-ninja]

As an aside, there is an i1Tesla video about how to turn the rear center armrest into a ski hatch:

Everyone needs a hobby I guess.

 

[AustinPowers]

Went shopping today, saw a Model S in the parking lot. The owner (about in his mid-fifties I would guess), who had just returned to his vehicle, saw me getting out of my Model 3, waved and shouted across the carpark "finally, another Tesla" to which I replied "about time, isn't it?". We both laughed. Tesla owners in Germany are a funny little crowd

 

[Perry]

The auto-sensing wipers were dramatically improved in the 5.15 release for the North American market, they actually do a tolerable job now where-as before I could not drive with them without having to manually intervene.

They are still terrible for me even on 5.15. So much so that I treat auto as my off position so that it takes one less touch to move it to one of the manual speeds when I need actual wiping.