How many believe that the FTC will find Tesla did use deceptive marketing practices?

[2101Guy]

You decide

Two senators urge the FTC to investigate Tesla over 'Full Self-Driving' statements | TechCrunch

Two Democratic senators have asked the new chair of the Federal Trade Commission to investigate Tesla’s statements about the autonomous capabilities of

techcrunch.com

Elon Musk says Tesla's Full Self-Driving tech will have Level 5 autonomy by the end of 2021

Tesla's CEO also confirmed that customers won't be able to transfer previous FSD purchases between old and new cars.

www.cnet.com

 

[diplomat33]

I think it is pretty obvious that Elon's claims about FSD have been misleading. He's made a lot of claims over the years about FSD being solved, about our cars being L5, about doing cross country FSD etc.. that have not happened. But Tesla was careful to put the usual legal disclaimers on the website about the software not being autonomous, needing regulatory approval etc... If you ignore Elon's claims and only look at the official marketing on the website, Tesla can probably get off.

 

[bdub85]

I love what Tesla is doing by working on the FSD problem, but I absolutely think they mislead people. Plus the whole FSD is an investment thing that Elon pushes is a joke. I honestly hope Tesla gets hit for deceptive marketing. I really don't like how they handle charging for fsd and selling false promises.

 

[diplomat33]

I think this whole FSD thing was an unforced error on Elon's part. If he had never used the name "Full Self-Driving" and never promised L5 or sold FSD, I don't think it would have been an issue. Tesla could still have worked on FSD, just not made any promises about it and not sold it.

 

[Ptheven]

Hoping they get whacked and that it hurts bad. They've misled and outright lied to customers. Time to reap the consequences.

 

[fiveten]

The names FSD and Autopilot are not misleading, but yeah I think a lot of folks have been mislead by Musk's promises...but don't know what the FTC will decide

 

[diplomat33]

The names FSD and Autopilot are not misleading, but yeah I think a lot of folks have been mislead by Musk's promises...but don't know what the FTC will decide

I don't think the name Autopilot is misleading. Airplanes have autopilot. Autopilot just implies that some of the driving is automated like with airplanes. And that is true about our cars. But the name FSD is misleading IMO since it does directly imply a fully autonomous car where you don't need to pay attention which are cars are not.

 

[golfpilot]

It said on the deal when you bought it "released upon government approval" this implies the software works, and people using it on youtube shows its "approved" to some extent. If I had bought FSD on my car with 58,000 miles on it now, I'd be upset. Especially when I go on youtube and there are tons of videos of it working pretty well. Then you have the really early buyers who were promised to have first access to it and not only do they not have it but are required to pay for MCU upgrades before they can get even EAP features. Anything short of refunding those people is nothing short of fraud. Anybody who buys a new Tesla before FSD is released should be refunded or transfer FSD to the new car.

Now I don't agree that FSD implies full autonomy. I think that will be a feature later that will require a paid upgrade. I think Taxi mode will be another paid upgrade on top of that.

 

[kavyboy]

Full Self Driving.
Well, not full, it can't do everything, it's just self driving.
Well, not self, it has to have a human alert there at all times. It's just driving.
Well, not driving, it requires frequent intervention. It's more of a driving assist.
So other than those three words, it's not deceptive at all.

I know it's a work in progress, but it's been for sale for years now. It's time to do something besides continuing to sell a product that doesn't materialize.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Now I don't agree that FSD implies full autonomy.

You know the term "self-driving" existed before FSD? Adding the word "Full" in front of it when you actually mean "Not" seems deceptive to me...
I do believe that Tesla actually plans to deliver full self-driving but I think they should offer refunds to people who don't want to wait. They should also go to a subscription only model.

 

[golfpilot]

You know the term "self-driving" existed before FSD? Adding the word "Full" in front of it when you actually mean "Not" seems deceptive to me...
I do believe that Tesla actually plans to deliver full self-driving but I think they should offer refunds to people who don't want to wait. They should also go to a subscription only model.

My car drives itself, on the freeway. It changes lanes, takes on ramps, of ramps, etc. Its self-driving, just requires someone to monitor it. Full Self Driving implies it will do that not just on the freeway but off the freeway too. The last two years or so it has been 100% transparent that is all FSD is when you buy the car. Right now the only thing missing is autosteer on city streets. FSD the way it is being sold is getting you mostly Level 2 features, Level 3 in certain scenarios. Anything past that is you just reading "Full Self Driving" and skipping past the details

 

[2101Guy]

It said on the deal when you bought it "released upon government approval" this implies the software works, and people using it on youtube shows its "approved" to some extent. If I had bought FSD on my car with 58,000 miles on it now, I'd be upset. Especially when I go on youtube and there are tons of videos of it working pretty well. Then you have the really early buyers who were promised to have first access to it and not only do they not have it but are required to pay for MCU upgrades before they can get even EAP features. Anything short of refunding those people is nothing short of fraud. Anybody who buys a new Tesla before FSD is released should be refunded or transfer FSD to the new car.

Now I don't agree that FSD implies full autonomy. I think that will be a feature later that will require a paid upgrade. I think Taxi mode will be another paid upgrade on top of that.

But full autonomy is Level 5. Which the CEO of Tesla stated, would be a capability of all Tesla's with FSD, by 12/31/2021.
Government approval to USE it on roadways aside:

Does ANYONE here think, that Teslas will have level 5 capability, in the next 5 months? Anyone?

 

[2101Guy]

Reminder of Level 5:

Level 5: Full Automation. Level 5-capable vehicles are fully autonomous. No driver is required behind the wheel at all. In fact, Level 5 vehicles might not even have a steering wheel or gas/brake pedals.

 

[golfpilot]

Reminder of Level 5:

Level 5: Full Automation. Level 5-capable vehicles are fully autonomous. No driver is required behind the wheel at all. In fact, Level 5 vehicles might not even have a steering wheel or gas/brake pedals.

And I'm yet to see Tesla sell a car without a steering wheel or gas/brake pedals. Mind you Capability doesn't imply paid for feature. FSD, the way it is being sold right now, is Enhanced autopilot with traffic lights, stop signs, an soon to be autosteer off the freeway. Anything past that will cost more, when it eventually becomes available.
I think all the cars are capable of Level 5. 100%. With good enough software and AI, the hardware could do it. Tesla doesn't have that software and I don't think they are even close to having it though.

 

[Daniel in SD]

My car drives itself, on the freeway. It changes lanes, takes on ramps, of ramps, etc. Its self-driving, just requires someone to monitor it. Full Self Driving implies it will do that not just on the freeway but off the freeway too. The last two years or so it has been 100% transparent that is all FSD is when you buy the car. Right now the only thing missing is autosteer on city streets. FSD the way it is being sold is getting you mostly Level 2 features, Level 3 in certain scenarios. Anything past that is you just reading "Full Self Driving" and skipping past the details

You can argue that the term self-driving should mean something else but if you look at what it meant was FSD was released in 2016 you’ll see that it meant autonomy. I think we should use the commonly accepted definition for words otherwise it would be literally impossible to have deceptive marketing. Every dispute could simply be resolved by claiming that the customer misinterpreted the words used by the manufacturer.
Read all the contemporaneous reporting on FSD from 2016 and you will see that everyone interpreted it to mean autonomous operation. I suspect if you look at the forum from 2016 you will see the same thing.

 

[golfpilot]

You can argue that the term self-driving should mean something else but if you look at what it meant was FSD was released in 2016 you’ll see that it meant autonomy. I think we should use the commonly accepted definition for words otherwise it would be literally impossible to have deceptive marketing. Every dispute could simply be resolved by claiming that the customer misinterpreted the words used by the manufacturer.
Read all the contemporaneous reporting on FSD from 2016 and you will see that everyone interpreted it to mean autonomous operation. I suspect if you look at the forum from 2016 you will see the same thing.

Thats why I said the early FSD adopters should either get a refund or FSD included with a new car. Not long after that the wording changed to basically be nothing more than you see beta testers doing on youtube. When I ordered my car it was advertised in the FSD hardware on all cars. Now they want $1000 for me to upgrade to hardware capable of FSD...

 

[Dan D.]

Selling something as "xxxxx-capability" is misleading when you mean that it might do it one day (or maybe never), just not right now.

If FSD requires both hardware and software then that's the feature, together. Don't sell me the hardware with unavailable software and then claim I knew what I was buying once I find out. Most people would not expect this. At the very least when you continually say "coming later this year" that's misleading because it never happened year after year.

Don't forget about the videos that show the features working in ways that they don't or shouldn't be used. Videos on their website and on news websites with Elon "self-driving, hands-free" people around. That's official marketing.

 

[2101Guy]

I have a feeling that in the end? This case by the FTC will hinge quite a bit on the documented, repeated, public and very clear statements made by the CEO of the company.

 

[Darmie]

We can argue amongst us all day but please tell me why this ice cream truck driver of a senator has it out for Tesla? Go after real problems.

 

[daktari]

You know the term "self-driving" existed before FSD? Adding the word "Full" in front of it when you actually mean "Not" seems deceptive to me...
I do believe that Tesla actually plans to deliver full self-driving but I think they should offer refunds to people who don't want to wait. They should also go to a subscription only model.

Now I get it, they have a special language!
"Not a flamethrower" = flamethrower
"Full self driving" = not full self driving
"Not a Model Y" = model Y
Etc