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HW2.5 capabilities

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So much amazing. Thanks @verygreen and @JimmyD!

So riddle me this batman, if the ultrasonics are useless for fast approaching cars and we have no rear radars, nor good lighting in behind the car accept that which is provided by oncoming traffic.

How will the car judge distance of approaching cars in the night? I would think the side repeaters would be blinded by the oncoming traffics lights, much like our rear view mirrors if we didn't have the autodimming feature. So, how do the side repeaters determine distance of oncoming traffic at night?

I thought the ultrasonics were extended to 8m to help with this (2x the old version I think?)

Old ones are 5m. So not quite double. I believe that @verygreen posted night photos and they seemed to be adequate. Headlights might pose an issue but it seemed to have enough dynamic range to account for a temporary blinding. The rearview does have some issues with headlights but its mostly good.

Couldn't the camera use the point source (headlight) as a data point for affixing both spatial positioning and vectored velocity?
 
So riddle me this batman, if the ultrasonics are useless for fast approaching cars and we have no rear radars, nor good lighting in behind the car accept that which is provided by oncoming traffic.

How will the car judge distance of approaching cars in the night? I would think the side repeaters would be blinded by the oncoming traffics lights, much like our rear view mirrors if we didn't have the autodimming feature. So, how do the side repeaters determine distance of oncoming traffic at night?

I thought the ultrasonics were extended to 8m to help with this (2x the old version I think?)

Estimating the distance and speed of an approaching car with just a camera isn't a particularly tough problem. The general technique is "depth from context" and it estimates distances similarly to how people do it, by using scale and orientation of objects, occlusion, and lighting cues. It's been researched for a long time and there are some great techniques available in the research today.

Here's one quick example: a paper from about 18 months ago that shows how to build an NN trained from a publicly available database to be able to estimate the distance to every object in a scene. It can probably be run in 5ms on HW2.

Original paper:
[1603.04992] Unsupervised CNN for Single View Depth Estimation: Geometry to the Rescue
Github code repository (in case you want to download it an use it):
GitHub - Ravi-Garg/Unsupervised_Depth_Estimation: Unsupervised CNN for Single View Depth Estimation: Geometry to the Rescue
Youtube video demonstrating use of it on driving video:
 
Couldn't the camera use the point source (headlight) as a data point for affixing both spatial positioning and vectored velocity?

They could use stereo-vision of the backup camera and a repeater to get the distance too, if they were up to it. Eventually, anyway. If only backup camera was not getting all clogged with rain drops all the time.
 
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Show me an FSD capable firmware and I'll tell you ;)

You’ll have it in 3, definently 6 months

The reason I’m asking is that this could tell us more about what is actually used during lane change. If front fisheye, medium, long range + rear is the EAP enabled cameras, lane change must rely on ultrasonics, front and rear to determine the adjacent lane is free.
 
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A while back I was wondering why the same NN was being run on both the main and narrow cameras. Using one net on two cameras with different focal lengths is going to damage your detection scores, but then @verygreen said at some point that he believed both main and narrow were being cropped to the same FOV to run through the network. So that fixes the detection score problem, mostly, but it brings up another question. If you're just doing object detection then doing it on two side by side cameras with the same FOV doesn't get you much beyond a bit of redundancy, so why? @verygreen also suggested that he thought maybe they were doing stereo for the front cameras and I was pretty skeptical because I hadn't seen anyone doing it that way. And I've looked.

Well, looks like I could be wrong about that (again). I seem to be wrong alot, unlike some other folks.

So yesterday @verygreen shared some output from a profiler that includes names of function calls from inside the vision process, and low an behold we can see "init_undistortmap_for_stereo" among the active functions. The most common methods of doing binocular stereo for computer vision requires that you raster align the left and right image, which in turn requires that you do some preprocessing to remove lens distortion and make both the right and left images completely 'flat'. Stereo processing then just measures the left right offset of pixels at various places in the image to create a depth map. (incidentally that LR offset is called disparity by the stereo vision folks) There's a bunch of information on that stuff here if you're interested:

The KITTI Vision Benchmark Suite

Basically, you have to "undistort" both the main and narrow before you run a raster-aligned algorithm on them to generate a stereo depth map. Which got me to wondering if main and narrow were far enough apart to generate any decent amount of binocular vision for a car application. They're pretty close together after all, and cars and stuff are pretty far so maybe you don't get much disparity from them. And once again the valiant @verygreen comes to the rescue with a set of images that @bjornb turned into this mosaic:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/attachments/merged_text-png.245225/

Which tells us two interesting things. One is that the fisheye is in the middle of the 3 forward facing cameras, so main and narrow have the largest separation, which is good if you want to use them for stereo vision. And the other thing is apparent when you look at the part of the mosaic where narrow is embedded in main. It's pretty obvious that the box around main and the box around narrow are not concentric, and that offset is the 'disparity' of the stuff near the boundary of the 'narrow' frame - which is mostly a couple of car lengths away. So yes, there is definitely plenty of disparity for things that are a few car lengths away, especially when you consider that these are high def images so there are a lot of raw pixels in there. So you can definitely get useful distance measurements using main and narrow as a pair of stereo cameras. And that undistort_for_stereo function implies that this is probably happening in AP2.

Though whether they use it to make driving decisions or it's one of those 'shadow mode' things is still unknown.
 
@jimmy_d solid thinking there. Yes, it has of course been known for a long while (see. the AP2 thread) has fisheye is in the middle.

So it makes sense, EAP based on stereo vision from those two cameras - and perhaps side-marker cameras for blind-spot detection next.

The fisheye in the middle could be next with traffic light detection for FSD enabled cars, perhaps...
 
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Oh no, not again…
Please go here, there or even there. Or start your own thread.

And could we please leave this thread for the pro's ? They have already found and shared an awesome amount of information and I'd hate to see them discouraged by the constant derailing.
Stop derailing us professionals with your commentary and pointers, I was just about to provide an important discovery regarding a top secret cloaked default algorithm regarding 2.5 HW but you made me lose track, and now I lost my place and I have to start all over. Screw it, forget it, now I can’t hear myself think.
 
Stop derailing us professionals with your commentary and pointers, I was just about to provide an important discovery regarding a top secret cloaked default algorithm regarding 2.5 HW but you made me lose track, and now I lost my place and I have to start all over. Screw it, forget it, now I can’t hear myself think.

On the topic of cloaking, is it wrong or twisted to watch a Model 3 review and all the time simply want them to pull out the rear bumper on this Model 3 and see if there are slots for rear radars there?

Tesla Model 3: first hour long in-depth look at early production unit

The things we're intersted in [at Jaguar Land Rover].
 
They're pretty close together after all, and cars and stuff are pretty far so maybe you don't get much disparity from them. And once again the valiant @verygreen comes to the rescue with a set of images that @bjornb turned into this mosaic:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/attachments/merged_text-png.245225/

Which tells us two interesting things. One is that the fisheye is in the middle of the 3 forward facing cameras, so main and narrow have the largest separation, which is good if you want to use them for stereo vision. And the other thing is apparent when you look at the part of the mosaic where narrow is embedded in main. It's pretty obvious that the box around main and the box around narrow are not concentric, and that offset is the 'disparity' of the stuff near the boundary of the 'narrow' frame - which is mostly a couple of car lengths away. So yes, there is definitely plenty of disparity for things that are a few car lengths away, especially when you consider that these are high def images so there are a lot of raw pixels in there. So you can definitely get useful distance measurements using main and narrow as a pair of stereo cameras. And that undistort_for_stereo function implies that this is probably happening in AP2.

The disparity in that image (and others) I put together may be a bit exaggerated because of a delay between camera captures (the images are not completely in sync with each other):
AP2.0 Cameras: Capabilities and Limitations?
(@verygreen can confirm?)
 
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The disparity in that image (and others) I put together may be a bit exaggerated because of a delay between camera captures (the images are not completely in sync with each other):
AP2.0 Cameras: Capabilities and Limitations?
(@verygreen can confirm?)

That is true, the images captured using that method are not exactly in sync.

It became obvious to me when I was merging AP2 images back in the AP2 thread such as this: AP2.0 Cameras: Capabilities and Limitations?

It was especially evident when looking at the three front cameras and B pilar frontal corner cameras as a perpendicularily moving car could be seen in different positions depending on the camera...