HW2.5 capabilities

[DamianXVI]

@DamianXVI you’ve analyzed the radar code, how do these things sound to you?

I'm not able to help here, sorry. I don't have any experience with radars, never worked with any radar device, and I didn't really analyzed the radar "code" in Autopilot, just tried to figure out the meaning of some files in the snapshots. I haven't seen anything in the snapshots data that could support this theory, but I can't also say that it is not happening.

And BTW, if you remember this lake image with radar echoes visualization I uploaded some time ago, turns out it was completely wrong. As I expected, I was stretching the data of a single sample to force some sense out of it. Nevertheless, it was not too misinforming, because after looking at more samples from snapshots I'm sure the radar can bounce from lampposts, curbs and trees.

 

[Padelford]

I just went on a somewhat circuitous path of discovery regarding the radar in my MX. I found the unit on the passenger side of the front of the vehicle beneath the front-most trim cover:

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With a video borescope probe, I could read the back of the unit. It's made by Bosch, and upon doing some Googling, I found the package picture and data sheet. The packaging closely resembles the images in the data sheet and found elsewhere in Google images. The metal clips on the top side of the package are a distinct feature as well as the connector location and the size of the package.

I plugged in one of the numbers I read off the back of the package and got this from Google: Tesla Model X Front Radarsensor Bosch 1057551-00-B NEW OEM OE | LA Global Parts, which cinches the ID of the unit as the radar. Mine has a 2/2/17 "manufacture date" (?), whereas the one in the link appears to have an 8/23/16 manufacture date.

Looking at the data sheet, this is an FMCW radar, which isn't as good as the Conti unit being installed in the Model 3's. I note that the package in my vehicle corresponds to the "rear" radar that Bosch offers, not the forward unit. The rear unit has half the maximum range (80 m) of the stock forward unit (160 m). There are some interesting features noted in the Bosch data sheet, like self-calibration, and direct motor control to maintain following distance for ACC. But the Bosch data sheet is not as technically detailed as the Conti data sheet.

I also found this Electrek article: Tesla releases the details of its new radar processing technology: point cloud, 2-car ahead tracking & more, which would suggest that Tesla has worked with Bosch to obtain a radar that has been customized in some ways. So, the data sheet max range value may not be correct for the Tesla unit.

Bottom line: Model 3's are getting a different and apparently more capable forward radar than is installed in my MX. It remains to be discovered if the new radar is required for AP 2.5. Someone with a late-2017 MX with AP 2.5 should take a look as I did to see what is installed in their vehicle front.

 

[verygreen]

we kind of know already hw2.5 comes with the conti radar and hw2.0 comes with bosch. Not that I have seen any hw2.5 with my own eyes of course (but if somebody has one and happens to drive nearby, let me know )

 

[Padelford]

we kind of know already hw2.5 comes with the conti radar and hw2.0 comes with bosch. Not that I have seen any hw2.5 with my own eyes of course (but if somebody has one and happens to drive nearby, let me know )

I was afraid somewhere in the prior 88 pages of this thread that what I described had already been discussed. So it goes. At least I learned a few things in the process. I'd still like to see a report from someone with an AP 2.5 MX that they have the Conti radar.

 

[MattD]

Hey guys,

I'm really loving this thread, thank you all for your contributions.
I thought I would chime in with some additional anecdotal information.

One of my friends just received their Model 3 a few weeks ago.
They let me check out the car in detail and ask a ton of questions.

They said that the autopilot on the model 3 is significantly better than even AP2.5 on S&X.

I asked why and they weren't sure but they do drive S&X for test drives on a daily bases and they confirmed with confidence that AP on TM3 is better. They also said that the Model 3 took significantly less time for the sensors to calibrate (50 miles instead of 500)
They said perpendicular autopark on the TM3 was better, parked in one smooth motion where the S&X usually take a few reverses to line up properly.

Anyway its anecdotal for sure but figured I'd share it.

 

[scottf200]

They said perpendicular autopark on the TM3 was better, parked in one smooth motion where the S&X usually take a few reverses to line up properly.

I would guess it is related to the cars shorter length and diff turning radius.

 

[brkaus]

They also said that the Model 3 took significantly less time for the sensors to calibrate (50 miles instead of 500)

My model S AP2.0 sensors calibrated in 50 miles.

 

[brkaus]

I would guess it is related to the cars shorter length and diff turning radius.

Yes, and 4” narrower.

 

[verygreen]

They said that the autopilot on the model 3 is significantly better than even AP2.5 on S&X.

This cannot really be that much true since the code is the same, really. Any hard stats? "Feels better" is very vague Can it do anything that S/X could not do (discounting parking tuff you described that's possibly different due to different car dimensions).

They also said that the Model 3 took significantly less time for the sensors to calibrate (50 miles instead of 500)

There was not a 500 mile requirement on ap2, as was already mentioned. It's usually done at the end of your first trip from delivery home (unless you live across the street).

 

[croman]

Also there is no proof that AP2.5 cars are any more capable at this point than 2.0 (or ever will be). The Conti radar certainly seems more capable but we have no idea what Tesla will utilize or whether the particular radar tweaks affected anything.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Ins't there reason to believe Model 3 has superior computing power compared to "AP2.5" on Model S/X? It has the interior camera and the new sandwhich computer, wasn't there some @verygreen research that suggested it could include more AP processing power too?

So Model S/X really are at AP "2.1" perhaps, while Model 3 would already be on AP 2.5?

 

[verygreen]

While hw2.5 does have dual nodes for the autopilot (so total computing power is bigger), the other node is currently unused.

I doubt the interior camera helps autopilot performance all that much.

 

[brkaus]

While hw2.5 does have dual nodes for the autopilot (so total computing power is bigger), the other node is currently unused.

I doubt the interior camera helps autopilot performance all that much.

Maybe it can respond to the “oh sh... shoot” look in my face when I use it. It gets very close.

 

[SilverL]

My model S AP2.0 sensors calibrated in 50 miles.

Seconded.

 

[boonedocks]

Have had my cameras reset and from new and from the reset AP was calibrated in about 20-25 miles. Both times jumped straight on the expressway and headed home and calibration finished in less than half of my commute.

 

[KyleDay]

Have had my cameras reset and from new and from the reset AP was calibrated in about 20-25 miles. Both times jumped straight on the expressway and headed home and calibration finished in less than half of my commute.

Same, except mine has been reset twice yet is almost immediately usable.

 

[croman]

I never got a calibration period...AP didn't even exist for AP2 when I took delivery.

 

[Joe F]

I have never seen a calibration period either. 12/2016 build.

 

[scottf200]

Re title: HW2.5 capabilities

OMG, I think the calibrations have long been established. Probably enough post on them. This thread is on a lot of peoples watch list so getting notified for trivial unrelated things probably annoys a lot of people.

 

[dennis_d]

A quick follow-up on the "which Continental radar" discussion...

So we already know that Tesla pulls not one, but two CAN outputs from the Conti radar. Looking at the Model X wiring diagram, these channels are called "CAN" (+ and -) and "CAN2" (+ and -). In the Model S wiring diagram they're called "CAN Primary" and "CAN Secondary". Notice that Tesla does not use the word "redundant" for the second CAN-output, but "2" or "Secondary". In contrast, Tesla does use the word "redundant" on some other wiring connections, for example "Batt Redundant" for the redundant (duh!) Power Steering ECU power supply. (Of course these semantics don't rule out the possibility that the secondary CAN is in fact for redundancy, but it might indicate that it's for something else. Which I'll come back to...)

Anyway, both CAN channels are on the same physical connector (the radar only has one), and they both go directly to the glove box (AP2.5ECU).

Since we now have our first actual picture of the radar, it's possible to compare form factor with available Continental radar types. I have, and the one that stands out to me is the ARS 404-21. Among all Conti radars, this one is the closest match, I think. The "giveaway" is the small hole in the upper left corner of the radar, plus the indents in the "upper stage" of the radar. What do you think?

View attachment 261902
View attachment 261903

You'll notice that the connector seems to be different. And it is. The ARS404-21 comes standard with a Hirschmann connector, while Tesla uses Sumitomo. So Tesla's radar could be somewhat custom wrt. to connector and/or wiring. And that's where the two CAN channels come in:

According to Continental's datasheet and this very informative description, ARS404-21 apparently comes standard with only one CAN output. But, the Hirschmann 6-pin connector does have two pins for “CAN” that are “N.C.” – i.e. “Not Connected” (not in use). Tesla's Sumitomo-connector is also 6 pin, with GND, IGN, CAN+, CAN-, CAN2+, CAN2-.

Now the interesting part is that the ARS404-21 has software-adjustable range resolution and max range, and switches between Near and Far range:


Furthermore, the radar:


Could it be that the two different CAN-outputs are for Near and Far range detection? (Custom for Tesla?)

View attachment 261909
View attachment 261910

According to firmware it's Conti ARS410