HW4 Phantom Braking

[ShrtlssCubsFan]

Yet another HW4 discussion, only this time it's something I haven't seen discussed yet.

For those who have taken delivery of their MY with HW4, and have owned (or still own) previous MYs with HW3, have you noticed any difference in phantom braking?

I've seen a couple mentions that HW4 should improve these events, but I'm yet to see anyone with real world experience and a basis for comparison (having owned a MY w/HW3) mention any difference, better or worse.

 

[flixden]

What is "phantom braking"?

 

[ShrtlssCubsFan]

What is "phantom braking"?

It's where the car is under Autopilot and brakes because the system thought it saw something in the road that wasn't actually there. People report that it's at the very least annoying and at worst it's dangerous.

 

[Pianewman]

Google search:

What is the phantom braking on a Tesla?

A Tesla phantom braking class action lawsuit alleges 2021-2022 Tesla Model 3 and Tesla Model Y vehicles suddenly brake even though there are no objects in the road. The Tesla vehicles are equipped with Autopilot, a feature allegedly rushed to market before the technology was safe.Jan 17, 2023

 

[Tam]

Yet another HW4 discussion, only this time it's something I haven't seen discussed yet.

For those who have taken delivery of their MY with HW4, and have owned (or still own) previous MYs with HW3, have you noticed any difference in phantom braking?

I've seen a couple mentions that HW4 should improve these events, but I'm yet to see anyone with real world experience and a basis for comparison (having owned a MY w/HW3) mention any difference, better or worse.

Better and faster computer won't help in some causes:

Algorithm error: If the software has bugs to cause phantom brakes then the quicker response of hw4 would speed up that error so you can feel the phantom brakes quicker without waiting for another fraction of a second. There's a complaint about unusable TeslaVision in a hot, empty, deserted highway with mirage. Human knows mirage is not a physical obstacle so someone needs to write up an algorithm for the machine to react correctly. By switching to hw4 without correcting the source codes, it's useless in these specific scenarios.

GPS coded errors: If it's erroneously coded a stretch of the road as 45 MPH while cruising on a 80 MPH highway, then with a better and faster HW4, you get that sudden slowdown quickly without waiting for a few microseconds more.

And so on...

 

[JB47394]

Better and faster computer won't help in some causes:

Algorithm error: If the software has bugs to cause phantom brakes then the quicker response of hw4 would speed up that error so you can feel the phantom brakes quicker without waiting for another fraction of a second. There's a complaint about unusable TeslaVision in a hot, empty, deserted highway with mirage. Human knows mirage is not a physical obstacle so someone needs to write up an algorithm for the machine to react correctly. By switching to hw4 without correcting the source codes, it's useless in these specific scenarios.

GPS coded errors: If it's erroneously coded a stretch of the road as 45 MPH while cruising on a 80 MPH highway, then with a better and faster HW4, you get that sudden slowdown quickly without waiting for a few microseconds more.

And so on...

Neither of which will be noticed by the driver.

Hopefully, the faster computer combined with the higher resolution images will improve perception and reduce the number of situations that produce phantoms.

 

[rwjr44]

When will Tesla fix the phantom braking problem?

 

[Tam]

When will Tesla fix the phantom braking problem?

Tesla has been actively fixing it.

It blamed radar, so it got rid of radar.

What else can you get rid of to fix the problem?

 

[dbldwn02]

When will Tesla fix the phantom braking problem?

Tesla has been actively fixing it.

It blamed radar, so it got rid of radar.

What else can you get rid of to fix the problem?

I got it! Bring back radar, but make it better radar! Genius!

 

[smogne41]

What else can you get rid of to fix the problem?

Autopilot/TACC.

 

[Tam]

I got it! Bring back radar, but make it better radar! Genius!

Not the cheap inferior radar in brand new HW4 for S and X. It has to be a 4D Radar that most Autonomous Vehicles companies use, like Waymo, Aurora, MobilEye, Cruise, AutoX... It's also called Imaging radar, High-resolution radar.

What is 4D radar?

 

[dbldwn02]

Not the cheap inferior radar in brand new HW4 for S and X. It has to be a 4D Radar that most Autonomous Vehicles companies use, like Waymo, Aurora, MobilEye, Cruise, AutoX... It's also called Imaging radar, High-resolution radar.

What is 4D radar?

So they brought back radar, only to likely remove it in a future software update? Bold move Cotton...

 

[thewishmaster]

Not the cheap inferior radar in brand new HW4 for S and X. It has to be a 4D Radar that most Autonomous Vehicles companies use, like Waymo, Aurora, MobilEye, Cruise, AutoX... It's also called Imaging radar, High-resolution radar.

What is 4D radar?

Although specs-wise it certainly sounds inferior to the kind AV companies use… see Tearing-down Tesla’s in-house radar design – Why did they bother? | Ghost

 

[JB47394]

Although specs-wise it certainly sounds inferior to the kind AV companies use… see Tearing-down Tesla’s in-house radar design – Why did they bother? | Ghost

Thanks for that link. The article is long on radar engineering details that you'd expect; frequencies, antenna design, etc, but here's one bit that I think folks here can appreciate. Note the figure description as well.

Figure 1. Detection of a motorcycle in rain, a key requirement for some automotive radars, will likely be < 100 m for the Tesla radar.

This was in the summary section:

The hardware selections that I see here reflect a design that prioritized time-to-market and cost over performance. With an active team now designing in-house radars, one has to imagine that this is just the beginning, and we’ll see progression of this program over time as Tesla evolves their entire system towards level 4 autonomy.

 

[flixden]

My model Y has 1,300 miles on the odo now, and I have experienced close to a dozen phantom braking events. Now I know what it is.
Two severe cases yesterday, with passengers in the car. It was rather embarrassing. Ended up turning cruise off. Hope Tesla finds a fix.

 

[Zimo]

I’m currently on a road trip with my 2020 M3 and having lots of phantom braking issues. I live in a metro area and I never have this problem. It usually occurs in wide open spaces with no one in front of me. Going east or west on sunny days is when it has happened to me. I’ve found that if I follow a another car and keep it in camera range, it mostly prevents the phantom braking. unfortunately, this means I have to drive at someone else preferred speed but it’s worth it.
With the latest software update, I now have phantom lane changes. The car now doesn’t give you the opportunity to accept or deny the lane change, it just starts doing it. Today, I had at least 5 incidents of this. 3 were when the car turned into a turn only lane, 2 right and 1 left on 2 lane highways. Twice on the freeway I’m Driving in The slow lane with no one in front of me and it turns into the fast lane for no reason. Shortly thereafter it turns back into the slow lane where it Almost cut off a car. I have FSD but it happens even when on cruise control only. On a road trip is where these features are needed the most but almost useless for me on this trip.

 

[fasteddie7]

Yet another HW4 discussion, only this time it's something I haven't seen discussed yet.

For those who have taken delivery of their MY with HW4, and have owned (or still own) previous MYs with HW3, have you noticed any difference in phantom braking?

I've seen a couple mentions that HW4 should improve these events, but I'm yet to see anyone with real world experience and a basis for comparison (having owned a MY w/HW3) mention any difference, better or worse.

I haven’t had a single phantom braking event in 2500 miles on my HW4 model S. I’m in a few threads with a few other HW4 owners on both single stack FSDb and EAP. Haven’t really seen it discussed might be because they haven’t had an event either.

 

[Supcom]

I’m currently on a road trip with my 2020 M3 and having lots of phantom braking issues. I live in a metro area and I never have this problem. It usually occurs in wide open spaces with no one in front of me. Going east or west on sunny days is when it has happened to me. I’ve found that if I follow a another car and keep it in camera range, it mostly prevents the phantom braking. unfortunately, this means I have to drive at someone else preferred speed but it’s worth it.
With the latest software update, I now have phantom lane changes. The car now doesn’t give you the opportunity to accept or deny the lane change, it just starts doing it. Today, I had at least 5 incidents of this. 3 were when the car turned into a turn only lane, 2 right and 1 left on 2 lane highways. Twice on the freeway I’m Driving in The slow lane with no one in front of me and it turns into the fast lane for no reason. Shortly thereafter it turns back into the slow lane where it Almost cut off a car. I have FSD but it happens even when on cruise control only. On a road trip is where these features are needed the most but almost useless for me on this trip.

You are saying that the car changes lanes when you are using TACC? How can this be, since the car does not steer when on TACC and the steering wheel moves freely in your hand???

Do you have FSD beta enabled? What you describe about "phantom lane changes" sounds a lot like old Navigate on Autopilot behavior that I have seen, where the car switches back and forth between lanes for no apparent reason. This occurred for me a year ago. NOA hasn't much changed since then, so it would be no surprise. Same for PB events.

If you do not have FSD beta enabled, but have a version that includes it, then I would give that a try. You may find it an improvement.

 

[dietereater]

Just use a Xeon processor and run a simulation predicting the road ahead. HW4 is a downgrade which utilises more power. FSD is suicidal, human error is more ethnical.

 

[SalisburySam]

Tesla has been actively fixing it.

It blamed radar, so it got rid of radar.

What else can you get rid of to fix the problem?

TACC. Give the option of dumb cruise control and PB goes away. Better than having paid for all the AutoEverything but can’t use it with passengers/pets due to PB. That’s my situation today.