Hydrogen vs. Battery

[electracity]

I sometimes wonder if executives get caught up in the "But we spent so much money, we can't stop now" mode of thinking.

I think they are just hedging and figuring that fuel cells may work in some forms of transportation. Fuel cells for cars will now have to outperform excellent battery technology. If they can do that, I want one. If they can't, fuel cells don't matter.

Toyota is going to be building a lot of great BEVs. Many managers at Toyota know this, regardless of their public stance. Part of Toyota public stance is probably due to them spearheading the drive for joint fuel call research among manufacturers. With Tesla aimed at the Germans Toyota probably doesn't feel particularly pressured to act on BEV now.

 

[JRP3]

Toyota is going to be building a lot of great BEVs.

Zero evidence of that, but sure.

 

[GSP]

.....With Tesla aimed at the Germans Toyota probably doesn't feel particularly pressured to act on BEV now.

Toyota's Lexus brand surely is impacted by Tesla just as much as premium cars from other countries.

I don't understand why automakers seem to just focus on making vehicles, with no regard to the network of refilling or recharging stations need to support a good customer experience.

How many cell phone would have be sold with only a few local towers that cannot even support the call volume? Every telephone network from the days of Alexandra Graham Bell took more design and building of the network than the phones themselves.

EVs and espically fuel cells are no different in their need for network support.

GSP

 

[PaulusdB]

I sometimes wonder if executives get caught up in the "But we spent so much money, we can't stop now" mode of thinking.

You’re right. The posh term for this phenomenon is sunk cost fallacy.

 

[dpeilow]

I think it's exasperated by the culture of not contradicting your boss.

By the way, this should get the Oscar for best documentary.

 

[Skotty]

"It will be super obvious as time goes by."

Getting there. I think we're getting there.

 

[WannabeOwner]

How many cell phone would have be sold with only a few local towers that cannot even support the call volume?

That's exactly how I remember it when I had my first transportable phone. Very limited locations where I could use it, and if I drove into another cell that was busy my call was just cut off ...

 

[Adm]

Leaking hydrogen bus stops trafic in centre of London;

Roads&Transport MPS on Twitter

Confirmation it was a hydrogen bus:

LFBTowerHamlets on Twitter

 

[dpeilow]

Talk about trying to put a positive spin on things...

Had to bring them back to reality...

Also, price gouging: 10% price hike in Hydrogen fuel overnight, FCV owners likely to run out of fuel allowance - Alt Car news

 

[RubberToe]

Whoa, came across the most amazing sight this morning. I happened to drive by a Hydrogen fueling station, and saw a car filling up, with two other cars in line behind it!

Made a quick decision to circle back and snap a picture since it wasn't clear to me that 3 of the total of 74 fuel cell cars in existence would ever be seen at the same fueling station at the same time. Unfortunately, or fortunately for the line waiters, by the time I got back to take the historic picture, the first car finished so the line was only then one car deep.

I guess when there is one "gas" station within a 20 mile radius, these kinds of rare celestial events can happen. Looks like this is the same location as the one in the tweet above too.

I'm guessing the driver in the white Clarity was on the www.fuelcellsaregreat.com site posting about what a time saver it is being able to gas up in only 7 minutes after waiting in line for 14 minutes versus having to Supercharge for 15 minutes in those lame Teslas...

 

[JohnSnowNW]

This may still be a factor of the fuel shortage:

Station Status | Station Status

You can't fill up at stations that don't have fuel.

EDIT: On further inspection most of these stations are down for maintenance, some lasting weeks. Well, if it's not one thing it's another.

 

[dpeilow]

Norway is closing down 5 of its 7 hydrogen stations apparently Hyop legger ned alle hydrogenstasjonene etter syv års drift

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Norway is closing down 5 of its 7 hydrogen stations apparently Hyop legger ned alle hydrogenstasjonene etter syv års drift

Who could have predicted that the high cost of fuel and maintenance would negatively affect a technology with low market acceptance. I sure hope California is watching.

 

[SwTslaGrl]

Germany rolls out world's first hydrogen train

Germany rolls out world's first hydrogen train

 

[nwdiver]

Germany rolls out world's first hydrogen train
View attachment 335807
Germany rolls out world's first hydrogen train

....... why??? Has Germany never heard of a cantilever???

 

[JRP3]

Or batteries? Bombardier revives the battery-powered train

 

[Saghost]

Or batteries? Bombardier revives the battery-powered train

It makes decent technical sense, actually - to pull a train at speed safely, the locomotive needs a rather substantial size and weight, so if the cost of the pack can be kept manageable, the technical specs shouldn't be terribly challenging.

If they have long runs without overhead lines, electrifying a few short sections and using a fast charging capable pack might be more economical than other choices.

 

[dpeilow]

There was a second all-SoCal hydrogen shortage during September: Mayhem in SoCal for FCV Owners as shortage hits, Air Products gives update through Toyota - Alt Car news

 

[Saghost]

There was a second all-SoCal hydrogen shortage during September: Mayhem in SoCal for FCV Owners as shortage hits, Air Products gives update through Toyota - Alt Car news

Maybe the most interesting part of that was the link to the real time fuel status website:

3 day California Air Products / TZ / Linde Station capacity

Looking at it today, something like a third of the sites have been out of fuel completely in the last three days (the charts run 72 hours) - and those that have have mostly been out several times in that time. Certainly not a situation ideal for peace of mind.

 

[dpeilow]

I've been trying to find an article that puts in layman's terms the estimated lifetime and efficiency drop of PEM fuel cells. I want something to quote to the fuel cells last forever but batteries only last X years crowd.

Funnily enough there is literally nada in the mainstream or automotive press/blogs on this topic. There are hundreds if not thousands of scientific papers though - why is that?

Anyway, I found this quite interesting: https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/11/8/2054/pdf

Not only do they say that the typical NEDC and WLTP test cycles accelerate fuel cell end of life to about 500 hours, but idling is actually worse for the fuel cell degradation and it should be kept under load.