Hydrogen vs. Battery

[FactsBot]

There was already an EU mandate for H2 infrastructure...that was dropped several years ago.

The European Automobile Manufacturers’ Association (ACEA) represents the 15 major Europe-based car, van, truck and bus manufacturers: BMW Group, CNH Industrial, DAF Trucks, Daimler, Fiat Chrysler Automobiles, Ford of Europe, Honda Motor Europe, Hyundai Motor Europe, Jaguar Land Rover, PSA Group, Renault Group, Toyota Motor Europe, Volkswagen Group, Volvo Cars, and Volvo Group.

Mercedes-Benz GLC F-CELL features an entirely new fuel cell system

"The conversion to electric drives is to be pushed ahead with great pressure in the coming years, above all in the passenger car segment. At the same time, one remains closely associated with the developers of the fuel cell and synthetic fuels. This said Daimler CEO Ola Källenius."

Renault unveils two hydrogen fuel vans, the Kangoo and Master

Hyundai gives details on H2 trucks for Switzerland - electrive.com



Cummins presents scalable fuel cell truck concept - electrive.com

Hyundai Makes the Case for Fuel Cell Trucks With Gorgeous HDC-6 Neptune - ExtremeTech

 

[JohnSnowNW]

The European Automobile Manufacturers’ Association (ACEA) represents the 15 major Europe-based car, van, truck and bus manufacturers: BMW Group, CNH Industrial, DAF Trucks, Daimler, Fiat Chrysler Automobiles, Ford of Europe, Honda Motor Europe, Hyundai Motor Europe, Jaguar Land Rover, PSA Group, Renault Group, Toyota Motor Europe, Volkswagen Group, Volvo Cars, and Volvo Group.

Mercedes-Benz GLC F-CELL features an entirely new fuel cell system

"The conversion to electric drives is to be pushed ahead with great pressure in the coming years, above all in the passenger car segment. At the same time, one remains closely associated with the developers of the fuel cell and synthetic fuels. This said Daimler CEO Ola Källenius."

Renault unveils two hydrogen fuel vans, the Kangoo and Master

Hyundai gives details on H2 trucks for Switzerland - electrive.com



Cummins presents scalable fuel cell truck concept - electrive.com

Hyundai Makes the Case for Fuel Cell Trucks With Gorgeous HDC-6 Neptune - ExtremeTech

Not sure what you're trying to point out here...

 

[FactsBot]

Not sure what you're trying to point out here...

There is an EU mandate for emissions as well, plus the individual cities' ban on nonZEV cars. If car manufacturers can't make it with EVs, they will have to get into FCEVs. At this point ACEA members think there will be a need for FCEVs to meet emission limits therefore they ask for government help.

To say RIP FCEVs is premature.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

There is an EU mandate for emissions as well, plus the individual cities' ban on nonZEV cars. If car manufacturers can't make it with EVs, they will have to get into FCEVs. At this point ACEA members think there will be a need for FCEVs to meet emission limits therefore they ask for government help.

To say RIP FCEVs is premature.

Well, right, they're completely reliant on Govt. funding to move forward, while at the same time BEV technology and investments would need to stagnate.

It's pretty clear that barring several technological advancements, and a sea change of public interest, FCEVs in the light-duty vehicle market will continue circling the drain.

 

[FactsBot]

Well, right, they're completely reliant on Govt. funding to move forward, while at the same time BEV technology and investments would need to stagnate.

It's pretty clear that barring several technological advancements, and a sea change of public interest, FCEVs in the light-duty vehicle market will continue circling the drain.

If it was pretty clear, no one would spend any money on light-duty FCEV development.

 

[JRP3]

If car manufacturers can't make it with EVs, they will have to get into FCEVs.

If they can't make EV's work at scale they certainly won't be able to make it with FCV's.

If it was pretty clear, no one would spend any money on light-duty FCEV development.

Anyone desperately trying to delay the transition to EV's would, and obviously do.

 

[FutureShock]

If they can't make EV's work at scale they certainly won't be able to make it with FCV's.

Very likely true, and also highlights the fact that BEVs have ‘first mover’ advantage.

IOW, FCVs aren’t really going to do much unless BEVs somehow drop the ball in terms of R&D/advancement... which seems unlikely, given the tremendous amount of investment flooding into the BEV space.

Anyone desperately trying to delay the transition to EV's would [spend money on light-duty FCV development], and obviously do.

Also true. If you look at the names of the companies promoting hydrogen, a lot of ‘em are fossil fuel corporations.

Wouldn’t have anything to do most hydrogen being made via natural gas steam reformation, eh? Hmm.

Hydrogen, at least for autos, is a bit of a greenwashing scam. By the time it isn’t (i.e. plentiful H2 through scaled-up major breakthroughs in cheap, low-power-cost electrolysis), BEVs will have advanced to the point where it won’t matter.
.

 

[Curious George]

Toyota truck 2.
Toyota Unveils Hydrogen Utility Truck for Port of Los Angeles | Trucks.com

trucks.com : "Hydrogen fuel cell electric powertrains are starting to gain the interest of the trucking industry. "

H2Q: This can't be happening! Tell me it isn't true!

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Toyota truck 2.
Toyota Unveils Hydrogen Utility Truck for Port of Los Angeles | Trucks.com
View attachment 474732

trucks.com : "Hydrogen fuel cell electric powertrains are starting to gain the interest of the trucking industry. "

H2Q: This can't be happening! Tell me it isn't true!

https://www.dailybreeze.com/2018/07...-expected-at-ports-of-long-beach-los-angeles/

Port of Los Angeles is a hotbed of trials.
That article links to another article about a Toyota HFC truck trial at the Port of Los Angeles from 2017.

 

[mblakele]

Port of L.A. debuts battery-electric top handlers for cargo loading – DC Velocity

Port officials joined Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti and representatives from heavy equipment maker Taylor Machine Works Inc. on Wednesday to demonstrate the zero-emissions, battery-electric top handlers, which are on-dock cargo-handling trucks designed for loading containers weighing up to 75,000 pounds onto trucks and trains, unloading them, and stacking them on terminals between pickups and deliveries. Built by Taylor Machine, the top handlers run on a one-megawatt battery designed to operate for up to 18 hours between charges. Each top handler has a data logger for tracking hours of operation, charging frequency, energy usage, and other performance indicators, port officials said.

The zero-emissions top handlers are the first of its kind and will help the port reach its clean cargo-handling goals, officials said.
​

LA-LB: Battery, natural gas best fits for 2021 truck goals

In order to track progress toward zero emissions from more than 20,000 drayage trucks, Los Angeles and Long Beach produce near-term updates on the performance of available platforms, including battery-electric, hydrogen fuel cell, advanced diesel, advanced natural gas and hybrid-electric drayage trucks. A CAAP report released Wednesday concludes that despite certain limitations, battery-powered electric and natural gas-powered trucks are furthest along in their development in terms of meeting the ports’ short-term goals through 2021.​

 

[JRP3]

H2Q: This can't be happening! Tell me it isn't true!

Money is wasted on all sorts of stupid things. It's true.

 

[Curious George]

Port of L.A. debuts battery-electric top handlers for cargo loading – DC Velocity

Port officials joined Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti and representatives from heavy equipment maker Taylor Machine Works Inc. on Wednesday to demonstrate the zero-emissions, battery-electric top handlers, which are on-dock cargo-handling trucks designed for loading containers weighing up to 75,000 pounds onto trucks and trains, unloading them, and stacking them on terminals between pickups and deliveries. Built by Taylor Machine, the top handlers run on a one-megawatt battery designed to operate for up to 18 hours between charges. Each top handler has a data logger for tracking hours of operation, charging frequency, energy usage, and other performance indicators, port officials said.

The zero-emissions top handlers are the first of its kind and will help the port reach its clean cargo-handling goals, officials said.
​

LA-LB: Battery, natural gas best fits for 2021 truck goals

In order to track progress toward zero emissions from more than 20,000 drayage trucks, Los Angeles and Long Beach produce near-term updates on the performance of available platforms, including battery-electric, hydrogen fuel cell, advanced diesel, advanced natural gas and hybrid-electric drayage trucks. A CAAP report released Wednesday concludes that despite certain limitations, battery-powered electric and natural gas-powered trucks are furthest along in their development in terms of meeting the ports’ short-term goals through 2021.​

one megawatt battery? or 1 MWh? Charging these will be the real pain. At 150 KW, it will be well over 7 hours. I think the port can onyl have a few of these before they set up their own power plant at the port
Recycling that 1 MWh pack after a few years will be another story though.

Funny, that port of LA also has a fuel cell based top handlers in the making (or already deployed maybe).
GreenPort | Zero-emissions fuel cell container handlers

“Where the requirements to power a fleet of electric Big Trucks is likely to exceed power capabilities of the grid, hydrogen may provide ports with readily available energy without a requirement for a high capacity electric charging infrastructure. Electric charging for a large number of trucks during the day also adds complexity to overall work planning in the terminal, which can be avoided using hydrogen.”

Cleaner, greener electric truck fleet expected at ports of Long Beach, Los Angeles – Daily Breeze

Port of Los Angeles is a hotbed of trials.
That article links to another article about a Toyota HFC truck trial at the Port of Los Angeles from 2017.

I think the trucks.com comment was for the Hyundai semi trucks, not this port of LA demo project.
The first Toyota fuel cell drayage truck is still running.

EDIT: More from Nuvera/Hyster. They obviously have onyl good things to say about the fuel cell top handlers.
Enabling Electrification: A Fuel Cell Case Study at the Ports

"Hyster-Yale Group, the parent company of Nuvera, recently announced it is developing a fuel cell reach stacker for the Port of Valencia as part of the European Horizon 2020 programme and the H2Ports project. The port will be the first in Europe to incorporate hydrogen energy in its operations. H2Ports follows a similar development in the Port of LA and the electrification of a Hyster® laden container handler that incorporates a Nuvera® fuel cell engine."

 

[nwdiver]

one megawatt battery? or 1 MWh? Charging these will be the real pain. At 150 KW, it will be well over 7 hours.

And if you wanted to generate enough Hydrogen for the same amount of use that would be ~400kW for well over 7 hours. Which would be easier?

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

one megawatt battery? or 1 MWh? Charging these will be the real pain. At 150 KW, it will be well over 7 hours. I think the port can onyl have a few of these before they set up their own power plant at the port

If the 20,000 drayage trucks that access of Port of Los Angeles were in constant operation, that would require about 1.12GW.

The economics would be great for smart charging those trucks. Only 1.12GW average needed, filling 20GWh of batteries. And to think people worry about how the grid will cope.

For reference Los Angeles current electricity demand is about 9.5GW.

Recycling that 1 MWh pack after a few years will be another story though.

1MWh battery, 18 hour operation implies average operating power of just under 56kW, with a C-rate of 0.05r.
Charging at 150kW would be a C-rate of 0.15.
Such a battery would last for a very long time.
Pretty much a dream scenario.

Funny, that port of LA also has a fuel cell based top handlers in the making (or already deployed maybe).
GreenPort | Zero-emissions fuel cell container handlers

As I noted in my previous post, the Port of Los Angeles is a testing hotbed. Development and grants are just more of the same and aren't anything to get excited about. Only volume deployments matter.

 

[Curious George]

And if you wanted to generate enough Hydrogen for the same amount of use that would be ~400kW for well over 7 hours. Which would be easier?

Yes, but first the generation doesn't need to be at one place or the same place (the port), so electricity draw can be distributed. Second, why do you assume all hydrogen has to be from electrolysis? You can split a methane molecule for example, and get FOUR hydrogen atoms.

I was assuming the port works 6 a.m. -10 p.m. or something like that, and then all the trucks get charged at night. Then, who's going to plug and unplug the trucks, and where is the massive electricity going to come from? I suppose in a controlled env like this port, some autonomous driving and robot connection may be possible. Even then, the high electricity draw remains.
If the port works 24 hours, then it is even worse. An expensive equipment is out of service for 8/24 hours. Meaning, the port has to buy 50% more trucks. If the truck is out of service 8/24 hours to recharge, for each 2 trucks, the port now needs 3 trucks.

But for hydrogen, a tanker can bring as much as you need. 4000-600 lbs in each. Or a pipeline. Fille up is 15-20 mins, just enough time to change driver.

This is where LOHC can really shine. These handlers are large vehicles, so it may be able to store the system to convert LOHC to hydrogen on-board. Then, using the waste heat to extract more hydrogen, it can be100% efficient.

 

[Saghost]

Yes, but first the generation doesn't need to be at one place or the same place (the port), so electricity draw can be distributed. Second, why do you assume all hydrogen has to be from electrolysis? You can split a methane molecule for example, and get FOUR hydrogen atoms.

I was assuming the port works 6 a.m. -10 p.m. or somethign liek that, and then all the trucks get charged at night. Then, who's going to plug and unplug the trucks, and where is the massive electricity going to come from? I suppose in the controlled env, some autonomous driving and robot connection may be possible. Even then, the high electricity draw remains.
If the port works 24 hours, then it is even worse. An expensive equipment is out of service for 8/24 hours. Meaning, the port has to buy 50% more trucks. If the truck is out of service 8/24 hours to recharge, for each 2 trucks, the port now needs 3 trucks.

But for hydrogen, a tanker can bring as much as you need. 4000-600 lbs in each. Or a pipeline. Fille up is 15-20 mins, just enough time to change driver.
View attachment 474976

This is where LOHC can really shine. These handlers are large vehicles, so it may be able to store the system to convert LOHC to hydrogen on-board. Then, using the waste heat to extract more hydrogen, it can be100% efficient.

Four atoms, two molecules. But usually you steam reform it instead, giving you four molecules of hydrogen - and releasing a CO2 into the air.

Our assumption was they are spending all this money to reduce carbon footprint...

 

[nwdiver]

Yes, but first the generation doesn't need to be at one place or the same place (the port), so electricity draw can be distributed. Second, why do you assume all hydrogen has to be from electrolysis? You can split a methane molecule for example, and get FOUR hydrogen atoms.

Um.... if it's 'distributed' that means that some of it will be at the port that's what 'distributed' means.... if you're using Methane to make H2 then it's not 'clean' and really not worth doing.... we need to be making methane out of clean H2 not the other way around.

THEN.... there's the problem that the equipment to split water is ~10x more expensive per kW vs equipment to convert AC => DC and you need >2x more of it. So it's >20x more expensive...

 

[Curious George]

If the 20,000 drayage trucks that access of Port of Los Angeles were in constant operation, that would require about 1.12GW.

I don't understand what you did here. Your math looks suspicious. What are your assumptions?

The economics would be great for smart charging those trucks. Only 1.12GW average needed, filling 20GWh of batteries. And to think people worry about how the grid will cope.

For reference Los Angeles current electricity demand is about 9.5GW.

1MWh battery, 18 hour operation implies average operating power of just under 56kW, with a C-rate of 0.05r.
Charging at 150kW would be a C-rate of 0.15.
Such a battery would last for a very long time.
Pretty much a dream scenario.

The keyword here is "upto". So I have some doubt about the 18 hour figure. But it could be true. It can recoup some energy of lifting the container with regen. The bigger issue is the out of service factor for such expensive equipment.
The power draw will be highly varied based on what cycle it is in.

 

[mblakele]

The market for passenger vehicles has said “no” to HFCEV. But commercial HFCEV could still make sense in some niches, because they're driven almost entirely by metrics like TCO and ROI, and they often operate their own fueling stations anyway. I could see someone like Walmart or a gas company investing in HFCEVs to replace diesel trucks, with hydrogen coming from a mix of commercial purchase and an on-site electrolyzer fed by curtailed renewables. Tesla Megachargers could also be part of private infrastructures: on-site installations at logistics centers, paired with solar and/or wind.

Trials like the ones in Long Beach will clarify the TCO and ROI for various technologies in various roles. Time will tell.

 

[Curious George]

Four atoms, two molecules. But usually you steam reform it instead, giving you four molecules of hydrogen - and releasing a CO2 into the air.

Our assumption was they are spending all this money to reduce carbon footprint...

That is correct. Methane is a powerful green house gas. Do you deny it, and do you think it's a bad idea to capture the methane and other biogas and convert it to clean energy? Just look at what's happening in Delhi in India. Major part of the pollution is because of farmers burning up agricultural waste. 20% used to be from a power plant next to the city that was finally shut down. Only 40% pollution is vehicular.
Moreover, CO2 is not that bad. It can be offset by planting more trees. I'd like to see the ZEV states mandate planting more trees in every house. It's the other particulate matter that are more dangerous to health.

Renewable comes in many forms, not just solar panels and the hyped up solar tiles. Read about this Toyota tri-gen power plant here.
Toyota actually proved H2Q right at least once. Hydrogen is truly BS.
Toyota to build power plant to convert cattle manure into electricity, hydrogen
"The company announced the project Thursday at the Los Angeles auto show. The Tri-Gen Project at the Port of Long Beach, Calif., will be the world’s first commercial-scale 100% renewable power and hydrogen generation plant. Toyota is betting heavily on fuel-cell technology, especially in Japan. "