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Hydrogen vs. Battery
- Thread starter siry
- Start date
Well, you can use multiple connectors and achieve the similar charge times and I guess you cannot do the same with gas i.e insert multiple nozzles into one tank!! Though battery cost is high you save on the fuel costs so it works out well when they break even.
In my opinion, it is just the mentality instilled onto consumers based on past popular products that have made it through the commercial market. It becomes hard for consumers to accept new things that are being offered even if they are truly way better than previous releases. In the near future when obvious benefits are seen, then only will consumers change their minds on things.
James Anders
Member
Adm
Active Member
Very nice article with insights into hydrogen.
Japan has about 600 hydrogen cars and 80 hydrogen stations
About 25 more planned until the end of 2017
Cost of a hydrogen station is about $3.5 million, fix costs per year $350k
Doing some calculations led me to the conclusion that it's impossible to make money selling hydrogen for a considerable time to come, if ever.
http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Tre...gy-firms-may-team-on-hydrogen-stations?page=1
Japan's automakers, energy firms may team on hydrogen stations- Nikkei Asian Review
Japan has about 600 hydrogen cars and 80 hydrogen stations
About 25 more planned until the end of 2017
Cost of a hydrogen station is about $3.5 million, fix costs per year $350k
Doing some calculations led me to the conclusion that it's impossible to make money selling hydrogen for a considerable time to come, if ever.
http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Tre...gy-firms-may-team-on-hydrogen-stations?page=1
Japan's automakers, energy firms may team on hydrogen stations- Nikkei Asian Review
AZ Desert Driver
Rare combination
The idea of electric Trucks can resurrect the concept of battery swap. The used batteries could spend days refilling, while the load gets moved by a replaced pack. Logistics start as a nightmare, but the trucking world is full of magicians in logistics.
Hydrogen fuel cells - there are places where that works - Space ships, laboratories, classrooms. Don't burn down the chemistry, but don't apply it to cars.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
Not noted is the fact that the vast majority of those 600 vehicles aren't individual sales, but Fleet/Govt. sales. A pretty significant data point.
As to making money on the fuel, most gas stations don't actually make money on the fuel. They make it on the attached convenience store items. The issue with H2 stations is that they're so costly to build that you wouldn't be able to recoup the investment for decades.
The difficulties with trucks can be fixed, but having done so, you will discover that you have invented trains.
Thank you kindly.
Adm
Active Member
I posted it twice, once here and once in the Dutch section. I sincerely apologize for the collosal waste of cloud space and your time of course.
Skotty
2014 S P85 | 2023 F-150L
I would be nice to see more freight moved to rail. It's ridiculous how many tractor trailers are on some highways, like I-70. With coal phased out of electricity generation, a lot of coal transport trains will be out of commission. For anyone concerned about the rail industry, this could be more than made up for by an increase in rail transport. Of course, if that be the direction of the future, I'd like to see rails updated to support electric trains in replacement of or in addition to all of the diesel (anyone looked to see how emissions work out for a diesel locomotive moving goods as compared to how ever many tractor trailers would be required to move the same number of goods? I would guess a train is notably better).
- Air cargo - 0.8063 kg of CO2 per Ton-Mile
- Truck - 0.1693 kg of CO2 per Ton-Mile
- Train - 0.1048 kg of CO2 per Ton-Mile
- Sea freight - 0.0403 kg of CO2 per Ton-Mile
- Zeppelin - 0.0887 kg of CO2 per Ton-Mile
[Wikipedia]
This statement
First of all, FCVs are clearly not the ultimate in environmentally sound automobiles. BEVs will always be cleaner than HFCVs. and hybrids are strictly better than a HFCV. There's nothing a Mirai does that a Prius doesn't do better, including g CO2/mile.
Next, the exhaust statement is moot. Hydrogen is simply energy storage, but the creation of Hydrogen creates CO2. Sure, you could create H2 through electrolysis, but doing that is dumb from a cost standpoint (it's more expensive than steam reformation) and dumb from an environmental standpoint (you're better off using the clean electricity for, y'know, things that require electricity rather than burning natural gas to make electricity).
I read someone try to argue that BEVs are a nice temporary solution until we can solve the fuel cell issues and then get to the ultimate H2 solution. which is completely backwards. HFCVs could have been the temporary solution if we had solved the fuel cell issues (e.g. cost) before we had figured out BEV issues and Gasoline/Electric hybrid issues. but we didn't. Toyota made a wonderfully efficient gasoline/electric hybrid that emits less CO2 per mile than a HFCV, and they've sold like gangbusters. and now Tesla is working on a mass market BEV whose presales are off the charts.
So HFCVs are simply an inferior solution. They're far from the "ultimate" solution.
It's about as ridiculous as someone today inventing a better videotape format.
really irritates me.
First of all, FCVs are clearly not the ultimate in environmentally sound automobiles. BEVs will always be cleaner than HFCVs. and hybrids are strictly better than a HFCV. There's nothing a Mirai does that a Prius doesn't do better, including g CO2/mile.
Next, the exhaust statement is moot. Hydrogen is simply energy storage, but the creation of Hydrogen creates CO2. Sure, you could create H2 through electrolysis, but doing that is dumb from a cost standpoint (it's more expensive than steam reformation) and dumb from an environmental standpoint (you're better off using the clean electricity for, y'know, things that require electricity rather than burning natural gas to make electricity).
I read someone try to argue that BEVs are a nice temporary solution until we can solve the fuel cell issues and then get to the ultimate H2 solution. which is completely backwards. HFCVs could have been the temporary solution if we had solved the fuel cell issues (e.g. cost) before we had figured out BEV issues and Gasoline/Electric hybrid issues. but we didn't. Toyota made a wonderfully efficient gasoline/electric hybrid that emits less CO2 per mile than a HFCV, and they've sold like gangbusters. and now Tesla is working on a mass market BEV whose presales are off the charts.
So HFCVs are simply an inferior solution. They're far from the "ultimate" solution.
It's about as ridiculous as someone today inventing a better videotape format.
Kipernicus
Model S Res#P1440
This article talks a lot about the Mirai, but I think its main topic is hydrogen FCVs in general. Article admires the infrastructure problem and mentions how much California is putting in. At least it admits of the Mirai ".. its attributes don’t include being cheap to operate. A fill-up to drive 300 miles costs about $75."
NY Times: Water Out of the Tailpipe: A New Class of Electric Car Gains Traction
One sentence could have been better: "Battery electric vehicles are still limited to a maximum of about 200 miles of driving before a recharge is required, and charging up can take time — four hours or more in some cases. "
Should be re-written as
"Battery electric vehicles are still limited to a maximum of about 290 miles of driving before a recharge is required, and charging up can be as little as 45 minutes. "
NY Times: Water Out of the Tailpipe: A New Class of Electric Car Gains Traction
One sentence could have been better: "Battery electric vehicles are still limited to a maximum of about 200 miles of driving before a recharge is required, and charging up can take time — four hours or more in some cases. "
Should be re-written as
"Battery electric vehicles are still limited to a maximum of about 290 miles of driving before a recharge is required, and charging up can be as little as 45 minutes. "
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I'd suggest that the only charge time you should worry about is the time you have to wait for. On most days that means five seconds in the morning and five seconds in the evening. Compare this to the time spent every few days with a hydrogen car.
Well, it was a crappy filler piece lacking any significant research, so you can hardly expect anything good from it. Any decent piece would be looking into competing technologies, as well as other technologies that could have a large impact, like autonomy.
James Anders
Member
Remember, always follow the money trail.
The primary method of generating hydrogen is through steam reforming of hydrocarbon fuels.
Now who do you think might have a strong vested interest in maintaining a viable market for hydrocarbon fuels?
Hydrocarbon fuels like methane, propane, gasoline and diesel fuel.
The holy grail for these groups/companies pushing this is the possibility of an onboard steam reformer that could generate hydrogen, from a tank of gas (or diesel) and use that hydrogen to power a fuel cell. Sound complicated? It is. Particularly when you understand what's needed to do steam reforming.
Perhaps this would have been viable some day if there never was the advancements we've seen in Lithium battery technology.
The primary method of generating hydrogen is through steam reforming of hydrocarbon fuels.
Now who do you think might have a strong vested interest in maintaining a viable market for hydrocarbon fuels?
Hydrocarbon fuels like methane, propane, gasoline and diesel fuel.
The holy grail for these groups/companies pushing this is the possibility of an onboard steam reformer that could generate hydrogen, from a tank of gas (or diesel) and use that hydrogen to power a fuel cell. Sound complicated? It is. Particularly when you understand what's needed to do steam reforming.
Perhaps this would have been viable some day if there never was the advancements we've seen in Lithium battery technology.
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