Hydrogen vs. Battery

[Guy V]

We expanded renewables before EVs. Why would we need FCEVs to expand clean H2? You think fertilizer and steel companies are somehow immune from pressures to 'Go Green'?

Having more solar on my home does nothing to change the fact that exporting less to charge an EV means more CH4 is burned... until.... say it with me.... WE'RE FLOODED WITH CLEAN ENERGY. I could have 10MW on my house. STILL putting 5kWh into my car would mean ~5# of CH4 was burned. until.... WE'RE FLOODED WITH CLEAN ENERGY. You don't pay down the 4% card when you still have debt on the 15% card unless you don't understand numbers.

You are off the track again. We need clean vehicles to displace dirty ones. The sooner we get on with that the more we reduce the threat to our continued existence. If someone is motivated to make hydrogen vehicles that do that how dare you get in their way? It is the definition of counterproductive to obstruct useful work from being done.

You won't even buy into more solar for you car. If you are claiming futility of building renewables to offset your electricity use why do you have solar at all? According to your logic the only rational thing you can do to help the situation is to drop dead and stop using any energy.

 

[JRP3]

If someone is motivated to make hydrogen vehicles that do that how dare you get in their way?

Because they are wasting time, money, and resources which would be better spent on improving and expanding EV's and renewable generation and storage. Every dollar wasted on hydrogen could go to EV's, and there have been billions wasted.

 

[nwdiver]

You are off the track again. We need clean vehicles to displace dirty ones. The sooner we get on with that the more we reduce the threat to our continued existence. If someone is motivated to make hydrogen vehicles that do that how dare you get in their way? It is the definition of counterproductive to obstruct useful work from being done.

For the ~15th time. For the foreseeable future a FCEV WILL increase emissions over ICE. That's just a fact. Using solar to make H2 to fuel a FCEV means more CH4 to make electricity and/or more CH4 to make H2. It is the definition of counterproductive to invest in countering progress. You don't pay off the 4% credit card if you still have debt at 15%.

 

[Guy V]

Because they are wasting time, money, and resources which would be better spent on improving and expanding EV's and renewable generation and storage. Every dollar wasted on hydrogen could go to EV's, and there have been billions wasted.

They are not wasted if they go to getting an ICE vehicle off the road. Hydrogen vehicles ARE EVs. You have no basis whatsoever for the supposition they would otherwise go to battery vehicles. I suppose generally every dollar wasted on chocolate could go to EVs, and there have billions wasted making us overweight. Maybe that's a campaign you should work on.

 

[nwdiver]

Hydrogen vehicles ARE EVs.

An EV that uses >2x as much energy making them worse than useless until we're flooded with surplus clean energy.

 

[Guy V]

For the ~15th time. For the foreseeable future a FCEV WILL increase emissions over ICE. That's just a fact. Using solar to make H2 to fuel a FCEV means more CH4 to make electricity and/or more CH4 to make H2. It is the definition of counterproductive to invest in countering progress. You don't pay off the 4% credit card if you still have debt at 15%.

Now you can see the future.

I already explained the credit card thing to you. People mostly don't pay off their credit cards, and they really don't get credit cards that only charge 4% interest, even 15% is a bargain. When people do pay off credit cards it is not because they are suddenly willing and able to start living on less than their income and begin to nibble away at them. It's mostly from a windfall like selling their Tesla stock or Pokémon collection, or other change in their financial circumstances. Often that's an opportunity to refinance their debt at a lower rate.

 

[Guy V]

An EV that uses >2x as much energy making them worse than useless until we're flooded with surplus clean energy.

They are not useless if they take a Jetta TDI off the road, they are doing their incremental bit to save the planet, just like your solar panels, which you need to install more of.

 

[ohmman]

Now you can see the future.

I already explained the credit card thing to you. People mostly don't pay off their credit cards, and they really don't get credit cards that only charge 4% interest, even 15% is a bargain. When people do pay off credit cards it is not because they are suddenly willing and able to start living on less than their income and begin to nibble away at them. It's mostly from a windfall like selling their Tesla stock or Pokémon collection, or other change in their financial circumstances. Often that's an opportunity to refinance their debt at a lower rate.

I paid off my debt two years out of college. I went with the highest interest first, and worked to the lowest. I consolidated where they'd allow it. I had credit card and student loan debt.

What are you talking about? I was earning $25k-40k a year at the time (first/second year).

I haven't carried debt again except for my very first home that I financed.

 

[nwdiver]

Now you can see the future.

They are not useless if they take a Jetta TDI off the road, they are doing their incremental bit to save the planet, just like your solar panels, which you need to install more of.

Not hard to extrapolate from the past. It's taken us >20 years to get to < 200TWh/yr of clean energy. We need 4000TWh/yr just to meet current electric demand and another ~2000TWh/yr to get to a zero carbon economy. You don't need to be John Nash to see that we're not getting from 200TWh/yr to 6000TWh/yr anytime soon....

Driving a Jetta TDI 100 miles would result in less CO2 than driving a Mirai 100 miles until we're flooded with clean energy because numbers.

If you can accept that it only makes sense to payoff the 4% loan over the 15% if you can 'pay it all at once' why are you having such a hard time accepting the same concept with H2? It only makes sense to spend it on FCEVs when the 'higher interest' uses for H2 are fulfilled.

 

[JRP3]

They are not wasted if they go to getting an ICE vehicle off the road.

They are if the same money and resources could have gotten many more ICE's off the road by developing EV's instead, which they could have. All fuel cell passenger vehicles are total failures and complete wastes compared to EV's.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I just googled "clean hydrogen" to see what is the latest progress. The first article that came up:
Use of clean hydrogen could lead to higher greenhouse gas emissions than coal- Technology News, Firstpost

Basically the carbon capture that the clean hydrogen is banked on has much higher emissions than expected due to the fact that the carbon capture process uses energy also, basically making such "clean hydrogen" no cleaner than conventional fossil fuels.

 

[Guy V]

I paid off my debt two years out of college. I went with the highest interest first, and worked to the lowest. I consolidated where they'd allow it. I had credit card and student loan debt.

What are you talking about? I was earning $25k-40k a year at the time (first/second year).

I haven't carried debt again except for my very first home that I financed.

Well there you go. Congratulations! Your financial circumstances changed and you consolidated. You bought a home and an EV and installed solar panels. Do you really think you are typical?

 

[SageBrush]

I just googled "clean hydrogen" to see what is the latest progress. The first article that came up:

And via Bloomberg, talking about Europe

according to Credit Suisse Group AG. With carbon more than doubling in the past year and prices set to reach 100 euros ($118) as soon as the middle of this decade

That is an estimate of ~ 12 cents a kWh cost to buy carbon emission allowances

'Blue' or 'Brown' H2 is a non-starter wherever PV/Wind/Battery can exist.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Logged into my Facebook Toyota Mirai account to view the group today. Ouch. This is basically the entire conversation, not a select excerpt.

Personally, I feel badly for these people who were sold a lie. They had the right idea and the right motivation and were screwed over. Too bad they didn't have some naysayers around them to prevent this.

View attachment 697049

Station Status | Station Status

m.cafcp.org

Relevant to this topic: as of this second only about 60% of the H2 stations are online.

 

[ZsoZso]

For the ~15th time. For the foreseeable future a FCEV WILL increase emissions over ICE. That's just a fact. Using solar to make H2 to fuel a FCEV means more CH4 to make electricity and/or more CH4 to make H2. It is the definition of counterproductive to invest in countering progress. You don't pay off the 4% credit card if you still have debt at 15%.

Your credit card analogy does not match what @Guy V is advocating. He is not paying off the 4% card with his cash before the 15% one. Instead, he is borrowing more money on the 15% card to pay off the 4% one!

 

[mblakele]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1426900737313984514

Seems like a good approach and good presentation, but I haven’t analyzed it in detail. Worth reading the whole thread, as well as the more exhaustive article.

The Clean Hydrogen Ladder [Now updated to V4.1]

The Clean Hydrogen Ladder is my attempt to put use cases for clean hydrogen into some sort of merit order. OK my lovelies, here by popular demand is Version 4.

www.linkedin.com

 

[SO16]

If HFCV are like ICE vehicles in how to fill and EVs are more convenient than ICE (when charging from home), I just don’t see the point of going back to HFCV/ICE.

 

[eevee-fan]

If HFCV are like ICE vehicles in how to fill and EVs are more convenient than ICE (when charging from home), I just don’t see the point of going back to HFCV/ICE.

That's what film camera makers said about digital camera. LOL

Charging at any/all parking spot is plenty convenient in my book. Occasional road trip, I can handle. Not much different than driving an compact vehicle and renting a van/truck that you need once a year or less.

 

[nwdiver]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1426900737313984514

Seems like a good approach and good presentation, but I haven’t analyzed it in detail. Worth reading the whole thread, as well as the more exhaustive article.

The Clean Hydrogen Ladder [Now updated to V4.1]

The Clean Hydrogen Ladder is my attempt to put use cases for clean hydrogen into some sort of merit order. OK my lovelies, here by popular demand is Version 4.

www.linkedin.com

WOW... FCEVs get a 'G'? That's a thing? Even the glue eating kids were able to achieve a 'F'!

 

[woof]

Green Hydrogen — Where Is It Useful? Where Is It Not? - CleanTechnica

In this episode of our CleanTech Talk podcast interview series, Zach Shahan sits down with Mark Z. Jacobson, professor at Stanford University and co-founder of The Solutions Project, to discuss green hydrogen.

cleantechnica.com

"Zach and Mark start their discussion on green hydrogen by exploring where it is particularly useful today and where it might be useful in the future. Hydrogen, as Mark explains, is mainly beneficial when talking about long-distance, heavy transport. And, he emphasizes, it is typically only a good solution if it is created by clean renewable energy in the first place. Why long-distance, heavy transport? According to Mark, it is much easier, more energy efficient, and more cost efficient to use conventional batteries in personal electric vehicles."
Emphasis mine.