I don't expect any automated driving system to actually reach full level 5.

[Kablooie]

Level 5 means you can use automated driving everywhere for everything.
I posit that full level 5 automation will never be achieved because I had a situation years ago that I doubt any automation could manage.

My 12 year old daughter was angry because of an argument, late at night, and decided to run away. She started walking down the street with determination. I decided to follow her in my car to make sure nothing bad happened to her. I let her walk, perhaps 100 feet ahead, while I drove slowly to watch her. I followed her down a highway, several neighborhood streets and a main shopping street. She noticed me following but continued walking until a police car pulled me over to question why I was stalking a young girl. When my daughter noticed she came over and I explained the situation. The policeman laughed, my daughter got in the car and we drove home.

I don't expect any automated driving system to be able to manage a situation like this. It would have to read my mind to understand what you I wanted to do.

 

[Supcom]

Level 5 means you can use automated driving everywhere for everything.
I posit that full level 5 automation will never be achieved because I had a situation years ago that I doubt any automation could manage.

My 12 year old daughter was angry because of an argument, late at night, and decided to run away. She started walking down the street with determination. I decided to follow her in my car to make sure nothing bad happened to her. I let her walk, perhaps 100 feet ahead, while I drove slowly to watch her. I followed her down a highway, several neighborhood streets and a main shopping street. She noticed me following but continued walking until a police car pulled me over to question why I was stalking a young girl. When my daughter noticed she came over and I explained the situation. The policeman laughed, my daughter got in the car and we drove home.

I don't expect any automated driving system to be able to manage a situation like this. It would have to read my mind to understand what you I wanted to do.

Parenting is not part of the SAE L5 description.

BTW, glad everything ended well.

 

[JB47394]

I don't expect any automated driving system to be able to manage a situation like this.

That's not autonomy, that's just the interface for giving directions. Instead of giving a destination, you give more involved directions. "Follow the little girl on the sidewalk and stay 30 meters back." The autonomy system can easily drive the roads you took.

And, yes, it's another tool that can be abused. Like all tools.

 

[ThomasD]

What about intuition and sensing danger? What would a Waymo do?

 

[Mullermn]

What about intuition and sensing danger? What would a Waymo do?

By the time a car is good enough to do genuine L5 then these scenarios won’t seem such a stretch. Whether the automakers will be prepared to build them is another matter.

You might be prepared to run in to a car jacker to make an escape, but would you deploy software for which you had liability with a ‘deliberately run in to a human’ feature in it?

 

[JulienW]

L5 is a lot like nuclear fusion.

I heard the funnest joke about nuclear fusion.
I'll post it in 20 years.

 

[diplomat33]

Level 5 means you can use automated driving everywhere for everything.

No, it does not mean "everywhere for everything". Level 5 can only be used where a typical human is expected to be able to drive.

Page 32 of J3016:

“Unconditional/not ODD-specific” means that the ADS can operate the vehicle on-road anywhere within its region
of the world and under all road conditions in which a conventional vehicle can be reasonably operated by a
typically skilled human driver. This means, for example, that there are no design-based weather, time-of-day, or
geographical restrictions on where and when the ADS can operate the vehicle. However, there may be conditions
not manageable by a driver in which the ADS would also be unable to complete a given trip (e.g., white-out snow
storm, flooded roads, glare ice, etc.) until or unless the adverse conditions clear. At the onset of such
unmanageable conditions the ADS would perform the DDT fallback to achieve a minimal risk condition (e.g., by
pulling over to the side of the road and waiting for the conditions to change).

I don't expect any automated driving system to be able to manage a situation like this. It would have to read my mind to understand what you I wanted to do.

Level 5 does not read your mind. The human would still tell a level 5 system what to do or give it a destination. Level 5 just automates the driving from A to B.

What about intuition and sensing danger? What would a Waymo do?

None of the SAE levels are expected to sense danger. That is not their purpose. The levels are only about automating driving tasks from A to B.

Now, companies may add security features to their autonomous cars to protect their occupants but that is separate from the levels.

 

[Max Spaghetti]

What would the Tesla's automatic emergency braking do in this scenario? (Where you intentionally floor it at the car-jackers)?

 

[KArnold]

What would the Tesla's automatic emergency braking do in this scenario? (Where you intentionally floor it at the car-jackers)?

The go pedal will override AEB. It will work.

 

[bradtem]

The leading self-driving teams also have no expectation of reaching this "level 5." Understand that most of them don't really even use the "levels" for any engineering or design purpose, though they get used in conversation. The levels were created by government regulators, then taken over the by big car OEM engineering standards body, long before anybody actually built the technology. People just wanted a taxonomy, and all the regulators could think of was "what is the role of the human in driving the car?" a bit like "What is the role of the horse in pulling the moterwagen?"

 

[diplomat33]

Yeah, if we want to talk about the SAE levels, there are only 4 that exist in cars today:

level 1: an example of level 1 is your cruise control system. It is found in older cars or more basic driver assist systems.

level 2: that is your advanced driver assist system in many cars that can do both lane keeping and adaptive cruise control at the same time. Examples would be Tesla's AP, GM's Super Cruise, Ford's Blue Cruise, and many others. With driver facing camera to monitor the driver and make sure they are paying attention, many of these L2 systems don't require you to have your hands on the wheel at all times. But the human driver is required to pay attention at all times.

Where things get tricky is that we are now seeing navigate-on-pilot type systems where you enter a destination and the car can "drive itself" to follow the route, even on city streets. These systems can do more complex driving tasks than your typical L2 system since they do more than just lane keeping and cruise control. They can also navigate intersections, make protected or unprotected turns, stop at traffic lights and stop signs, navigate around obstacles like double parked cars, make lane changes etc... These systems can appear to be like a level 4 system. The human still needs to supervise at all times. In order to differentiate these systems from your typical L2 system, some car manufacturer made up the term "L2+" even though the SAE specifically forbids that terminology. Other manufacturers like Mobileye decided to make up their own taxonomy that they feel is more consumer friendly. So they use "eyes on, hands on", "eyes on, hands off" and "eyes off, hands off" in order to define if the system requires hands on wheel or eyes on road.

level 3: Mercedes and Audi offer a L3 system where the driver is not require to keep their eyes on the road under certain conditions. But these systems are really glorified L2 systems IMO. They just do lane keeping and adaptive cruise control but in a limited traffic jam situation, low speed, highway, with lead car. When conditions change, like the traffic jam clears and the car is speeding up, the L3 system prompts the driver to pay attention again. Because the conditions are so constrained, the car manufacturers feels it is safe enough to let the human take their eyes off the road when certain conditions are met.

level 4: Right now the only L4 is in robotaxis like Waymo. This is a system where the car drives with no human in the driver seat. The human is a passenger and never needs to supervise. But robotaxis are limited to geofences, hence why they are level 4. The reasons for the geofences are many but mainly come down to safety and liability IMO. By geofencing, the companies can keep the L4 inside an area that has been extensively tested and validated, so they are confident enough that the L4 will be safe without a human driver.

I think a big reason why we won't see level 5 for a very long time if ever is simply that level 4 will be good enough. Companies are not going to remove the human driver unless they are absolutely sure the system is safe enough. Companies will want to limit their liability risk. To deploy a level 5 system is a country like the US is simply too risky because it would mean deploying your car to drive on every single US road, 24/7, all weather, and assuming responsibility for an at-fault accident. Level 4 is simply easier because you can still deploy the same autonomous driving but limit the risk substantially by only deploying it in a geofence or limiting it to only drive in good weather etc... And there are plenty of level 4 applications like robotaxis, autonomous delivery, eyes-off highway on a consumer car etc... So companies can simply monetize a level 4 product. There is no need to take on the extra risk of level 5.

 

[diplomat33]

I would also point out that level 4 can have an ODD very close to level 5. Level 4 ODD just needs to have some design limit like geofence, time of day or weather. But that limit could be small or big. So for example, you could have an autonomous driving system that works on all roads in the US, 24/7 but does not work in rain or snow. That would still be a pretty wide ODD. Except for the no rain/snow limit, it would be level 5. So when we think of level 4, it does not have to be a tiny geofence, the ODD can actually be pretty big. So that is another reason why I think level 5 won't be needed because manufacturers will likely be able to offer level 4 in an ODD big enough to meet their business needs.

 

[Supcom]

I would also point out that level 4 can have an ODD very close to level 5. Level 4 ODD just needs to have some design limit like geofence, time of day or weather. But that limit could be small or big. So for example, you could have an autonomous driving system that works on all roads in the US, 24/7 but does not work in rain or snow. That would still be a pretty wide ODD. Except for the no rain/snow limit, it would be level 5. So when we think of level 4, it does not have to be a tiny geofence, the ODD can actually be pretty big. So that is another reason why I think level 5 won't be needed because manufacturers will likely be able to offer level 4 in an ODD big enough to meet their business needs.

Can you describe, in objective terms, what the L5 ODD requires? Not in subjective terms like 'everywhere a human is expected to drive', as that is is highly dependant on the specific human and his/her role, so is meaningless except for aspirational goals.

 

[diplomat33]

Can you describe, in objective terms, what the L5 ODD requires? Not in subjective terms like 'everywhere a human is expected to drive', as that is is highly dependant on the specific human and his/her role, so is meaningless except for aspirational goals.

Objectively, I think the L5 ODD would require the following:
- All interstate highways, major and minor state roads, rural roads, arterial roads, city streets, residential streets in the given market where L5 is sold. (ex: all paved roads in the US if L5 is only sold in the US)
- Parking lots
- All legal speeds.
- No time restriction (all day and all night)
- Sunny, cloudy, rain, fog, snow.

L5 ODD would not require:
- off roads
- dirt roads
- closed roads
- whiteout blizzard
- completely iced over roads (your car slips and slides uncontrollably)
- flooded roads
- dense fog where visibility is zero.
- hurricane conditions
- tornado conditions
- Any time, weather service has declared all driving forbidden.

I tried to be detailed in my answer. The only part that is a bit hard to define is how heavy rain, fog or snow would have to be, not to be included in L5 ODD. That might get subjective. What one person considers heavy rain, others might consider moderate. But basically, if visibility were basically zero for a human driver, then it would not be included in L5 ODD.

 

[heltok]

For lvl 5 it should be able to do everything, including keeping Summer safe:

 

[father_of_6]

I think there are a lot of posts here missing the point. Level 5 will do the driving so that you can stand up, pop your head out of the sun-roof, and take out the bad guys with your submachine gun. Then the car can fly away, because eVTOL, yo.

 

[Supcom]

Objectively, I think the L5 ODD would require the following:
- All interstate highways, major and minor state roads, rural roads, arterial roads, city streets, residential streets in the given market where L5 is sold. (ex: all paved roads in the US if L5 is only sold in the US)
- Parking lots
- All legal speeds.
- No time restriction (all day and all night)
- Sunny, cloudy, rain, fog, snow.

L5 ODD would not require:
- off roads
- dirt roads
- closed roads
- whiteout blizzard
- completely iced over roads (your car slips and slides uncontrollably)
- flooded roads
- dense fog where visibility is zero.
- hurricane conditions
- tornado conditions
- Any time, weather service has declared all driving forbidden.

I tried to be detailed in my answer. The only part that is a bit hard to define is how heavy rain, fog or snow would have to be, not to be included in L5 ODD. That might get subjective. What one person considers heavy rain, others might consider moderate. But basically, if visibility were basically zero for a human driver, then it would not be included in L5 ODD.

These are not objective requirements. They are specification paragraph headings.

I suspect that the SAE has not defined the conditions yet because nobody is close to certifying an L5 system. Defining what it means to operate wherever human is expected to do so will be very difficult. For example, required snow must include snow fall rates, wind conditions for those rates, snowflake size, potentially snow temperature (wet snow vs. dry snow), snow depth in the road (once again with wet and dry definitions), slush, snowbank sizes and positions, ruts etc. Probably much more that doesn't come to mind. And that's just for snow.

BTW, why did you exclude dirt roads? There are many people who live along dirt roads. Are they not eligible for L5 vehicles in your world?

I'm really not picking on you. I just see so many claims about L5 here that I was wondering if the L5 ODD was defined as something other than an asymptotic driving goal.

 

[Kablooie]

What about sitting in In-n-Out lines that snake around the block? That’s something that any driver needs to do if you live in California. Maybe Musk will combine Neurolink with FSD and it really WILL read your mind.

 

[KArnold]

What about sitting in In-n-Out lines that snake around the block?

Actually a good use case for TACC. Just steer.

 

[Ben W]

Actually a good use case for TACC. Just steer.

BACC. (Burger-Aware Cruise Control.) With the ability to place the order, and pop the frunk so the order can be placed in it.