I hope Tesla Lowers the Supercharging Rates

[SageBrush]

You're a bit confused here I guess.

Bad guess

 

[chronopc]

Yes. I have and it doesn’t help. I can charge for less at night but have to pay through the nose during the evening when I need electricity to light up the house!

My plan has 3 tiers, peak, partial-peak, and off-peak. For the evening I'm paying partial-peak, which would be the same rate regardless if I'm on the EV rate plan or not.

Light doesn't use much electricity. Laundry and charging the car is 75% of my electricity use, so I end up saving quite a bit with the EV rate plan.

 

[ℬête Noire]

You're a bit confused here I guess. First, Tesla has had a long history of losses. That means all the model X and S cars that Tesla sold ended up losing the company money.

*facepalm*

The company reporting a loss on the quarter does NOT necessarily mean the products they were selling sold at a loss. In fact Model S gross margins have a long history of being mid-20% and up, depending on the variant. Those losses were primarily Capex going into the Model X development and then Model 3 development. Also the SC network represented a chunk of those expenditures.

After an opener like that in your post I'm going to take a break before getting through the rest of it. I have a bad feeling my forehead will take a real beating, want to brace myself for it and maybe get a nice foam pad for my desk or something.....

 

[DrDabbles]

Yeah, maybe there's some deals somewhere in NC that get close to that. Or it's the grid wholesale price or something. But average residential, all fees included, is considerably higher.

https://www.chooseenergy.com/electricity-rates-by-state/

Yep. And nearly every state has seen electricity rates increase for residential services. Commercial services, like those used to feed supercharger locations, have significantly increased in my state. The per-state average rates when totaled have also increased nearly 5% for commercial power, even in the face of some individual states reporting drastic decreases.

Either way, I'm very sure this is to keep charging from being a loss, to increase the speed of charger deployments, and maybe even to aide the rollout of supercharger v3.

 

[happyzod]

*facepalm*

The company reporting a lose on the quarter does NOT necessarily mean the products they were selling their products at a loss. In fact Model S margins have a long history of being mid-20% and up, depending on the variant. Those loses were Capex going into the SC network, Model X development and then Model 3 development.

*facepalm*
CapEx does not show up as an expense on the balance sheet. It shows up as an asset.

 

[chronopc]

Agreed, TOU is a scam. California needs to get away from this privatized utility setup. It failed. No competition to lower rates. Just go to a public utility setup or bring in another company.

I'm not sure about southern CA, but with P&GE there are baseline for the lower rates. So once you hit those and you will with an EV, you will pay a lot for electricity.

I'm perfectly fine with getting rid of the public utility. PG&E is on their 2nd bankruptcy, so it's not like they know what they are doing.

 

[ℬête Noire]

*facepalm*
CapEx does not show up as an expense on the balance sheet. It shows up as an asset.

Yeah, I'm not even going to bother with the rest of your post. Better to just flip the Ignore switch for the presevation of my sanity.

 

[YusufT]

You're right, it is not supposed to be, except the majority of Tesla's sold M3s exist in an area where a large portion of those owners charge at a supercharger. There are four superchargers within San Diego county, three of them have a constant wait to charge. The fourth one requires you to pay to use the parking garage per 15 minutes on top of the supercharger price. It never has more than 4 or 5 of its stalls occupied.

Roughly 135,000 Model 3s were sold in 2018 in the U.S. Half were in California. There is a reason superchargers are full here.

I have no problem paying more, but this continued increase of supercharger rates to build out the network WILL have an effect on Tesla's narrative of efficient and lost cost per mile driving and that is just not good for future sales and expansion.

That sounds like an issue with San Diego in general, not Tesla in terms of paying for parking. Also, you just admitted that there is an overpopulation issue with superchargers, and yet you refuse to help Tesla expand their network. Talking on the internet is one thing, actually taking action (paying with your wallet) is another. You really think Tesla would “hurt” as you say, their future sales if they had no choice but to raise the price to expedite their roll out of supercharger stations?

Quick edit: My apologies I initally understood you were against Tesla raising their prices. I’m going to leave the post unedited as a reply to OP. To add onto my comment above, I’d like to point out to the issue you said about people not having room at their home to charge. The main reason Supercharging isn’t supposed to be your primary source for charging is because of the effects it has on the battery long term. Could you guys not petition to get more public chargers installed instead of using superchargers?

 

[ℬête Noire]

I'm perfectly fine with getting rid of the public utility. PG&E is on their 2nd bankruptcy, so it's not like they know what they are doing.

What's happening with the wildfire lawsuits? And does the public have the stomach to pony up to bail them out if that hits the fan?

 

[Electroman]

But $.30+ is ridiculous when I pay $.05 at home.

Why don’t you step into your neighborhood Starbucks and demand that they give you a cup of cappuccino for 25c because that is how much it should cost you to make coffee at your house.

Please report back here on what response you get.

 

[chronopc]

What's happening with the wildfire lawsuits? And does the public have the stomach to pony up to bail them out if that hits the fan?

The lawsuits are still ongoing. They usually take years to come to a resolution.

 

[chronopc]

Why don’t you step into your neighborhood Starbucks and demand that they give you a cup of cappuccino for 25c because that is how much it should cost you to make coffee at your house.

Please report back here on what response you get.

Am I reading that right? 20 cents per minute?

 

[ℬête Noire]

Am I reading that right? 20 cents per minute?

View attachment 370708

25c/kWh definitely ain't bad for the area (assuming your car's pulling the full amount all the way through). Same pricing as their L2 it looks like (assuming 6kW, as it's $1.50/hr). But that's on top of parking, I assume?

 

[dmurphy]

Wait, no it isn't that high there. Not unless you sit there and take it up to 100% SOC or something?

Sorry, I was making the base assumption that the $31c/kWh rate was coming across the board. So let's go with that as it's worst case... my numbers still work.

According to StatsApp, the model 3 on average gets 80% of its rated efficiency across all users. That would mean:

241/WH is actually 289/WH average

Which is why I quoted 275miles on a 0-full charge, instead of 310 .... tried to take that into account. Even if I'm off by a fudge factor of 5-10%, it's still close enough for comparison purposes.

I have no clue what it will even cost to do a road trip until I get in the car and look at the specific supercharging price...

Did you do that on gasoline? I don't know ANYONE who calculates the cost of a gasoline road trip before travel. Unless you map out every gas station you'll pass, get their current rate, and hope they don't get a delivery in the middle that changes the price ... nobody does that. Total straw man.

Because the mass market on average drives 30 miles a day. They will rarely need or use superchargers.

And will be home charging for far cheaper than they can gas up any gas car.

So their annual fuel cost will remain much lower with a Tesla than any ICE vehicle-

Even if I were to charge a Model 3 at a Supercharger 100% of the time, it'd still be cheaper than my Cadillac for fuel. And the Caddy gets decent(ish) mileage for a midsize SUV, and only takes regular fuel. Most of its competition requires premium - driving the cost up much higher yet.

For 90% of the users, 90% of the fueling is at home. For them even if SpC rates go up by another 50%, it is still cheaper to drive a Model 3.

Even supercharging 100%, it's cheaper than ICE for me by about $300/yr. Not to mention that the Model 3 starts up ahead of the curve - the federal tax credit, and here in NJ, we don't pay sales tax on them at all either. Assuming a $58,000 purchase price (which is how I'd option out a Model 3), that's $3,842.50 (state) + $3,750 (fed) = $7,592.50 in savings relative to a dollar-for-dollar same cost ICE vehicle. Any savings on gasoline is total gravy at that point - in 3 years, I'd be into 5-digit savings territory. Simple a no brainer from a cost perspective ... I just need to get over my fear of disappointment in a smaller vehicle vis-a-vie the XT5.

 

[chronopc]

25c/kWh definitely ain't bad (assuming your car's pulling the full amount all the way through). Same pricing as their L2 it looks like (assuming 6kW, as it's $1.50/hr). But that's on top of parking, I assume?

Parking is usually free at EV chargers.

 

[Glamisduner]

So you have to alter how you use your electricity in order for it to make cents... sorry. Anyway, the fact you have to alter your usage by not using at all is a sad excuse on SDG&Es supposed "savings" plan. Side note, I am not much further down the 15 from you and it gets pretty hot in the summer, no A/C after 4pm when the hottest part of the is 3 to 6pm, I do not envy you.

Well we just started it in October so we will see how it goes. When I fist got the house it had single pane windows and no AC Now that was terrible! We have solar so if I had to use the AC for a week during peak usage we would be ok. Last year when I got the volt we did get put into tier 3 in aug/sep when everyone got hit with crazy overages (Slapped with a $350 then a $503 bill (vs $131 and $196 respectivly the year before) + the $250 for my solar loan each month), I was trying keep my NEM1 Tiered plan, but charging the volt (which only covered 1/2 my commute on electricity), resulted in these crazy overages!

Looks like power cost me $43 more this month than last year (this is before I bought the volt and tesla 3, and was on NEM1 tiered plan). ($201 vs $158, plus my solar loan is about $250) So I'm at about $450 a month for power for our tiny 1425 sqft home for Dec - Feb. It's not cheap for sure! but not too bad given that our solar system has some issues with defective panels and we have had allot of rain this month as well as January & February being probably the lowest production months in the year and also one of the most expensive months despite no AC usage. My consumption for the household over all has doubled though. Pretty sure I'd have crazy expensive power bills without EVTOU5.

The difference of an extra $45 for the car is nothing, I would have had at least 6 if not more fill ups in my gas car at about $30-$40 a pop depending on prices.

At $.55 a kWh, electricity was costing me more than gas, even just driving the volt (gas was cheaper than charging it).... See this thread: Still worth getting a Model 3 if Electricity costs more than Gas?

 

[chronopc]

Well we just started it in October so we will see how it goes. When I fist got the house it had single pane windows and no AC Now that was terrible! We have solar so if I had to use the AC for a week during peak usage we would be ok. Last year when I got the volt we did get put into tier 3 in aug/sep when everyone got hit with crazy overages (Slapped with a $350 then a $503 bill + the $250 for my solar loan each month). Looks like power cost me $43 more this month than last year (before I bought the bolt). ($201 vs $158, plus my solar loan is about $250) So I'm at about $450 a month for power for our tiny 1425 sqft home. It's not cheap for sure, but not too bad given that our solar system has some issues with defective panels and we have had allot of rain this month as well as January & February being probably the lowest production month in the year and also one of the most expensive months despite no AC usage. My consumption for the household over all has doubled though. Pretty sure I'd have crazy expensive power bills without EVTOU5.

So an extra $45 for the car is nothing, I would have had at least 6 if not more fill ups in my gas car at about $30-$40 a pop depending on prices.

At $.55 a kWh, electricity was costing me more than gas, even just driving the volt (gas was cheaper than charging it).... See this thread: Still worth getting a Model 3 if Electricity costs more than Gas?

Wow you're paying $.55 a kWh?

 

[Glamisduner]

Parking is usually free at EV chargers.

We have 3 chargers in SD area, Downtown charges per hour for parking. Qualcomm is free to charge / free to park but there's always a long line, then Oceanside has the urban chargers but no paid parking.

Wow you're paying $.55 a kWh?

Tier 3 SDGE,...I was well into tier 3 charging the volt + running AC in August (it was well over 95deg for pretty much the whole month straight). The tesla needs about 2x the charge as the volt for my daily commute. I could see that costing an additional $300-$400 over the $500 I paid if I had the model 3. Tier 1 is really small and 2 goes quickly with AC usage and car charging.

Right now it looks like 80% of our power usage is charging the model 3 at night.

https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/regulatory/1-1-18 Schedule DR Total Rates Table.pdf

No Model 3 vs Model 3:

 

[Knightshade]

Im not asking for a free lunch. I pay for my supercharging. But $.30+ is ridiculous when I pay $.05 at home.

Why?

At home you're pulling it 5-10 times slower, and pulling it entirely through your own hardware you paid for separately, and in a location you're already paying for separately, and maintaining all that at your own expense separately.

None of that is true at the supercharger.

Tesla will not succeed long term with the mainstream public if there is no price advantage vs an ICE and now there isn't.

Except, of course, there is.

You even mentioned it.

5 cents a kwh at home.

Which is much cheaper than the cost of gas per mile driven in any ICE vehicle on the market.

And the vast majority of the population has access to home charging, and it meets the needs of the vast majority of them.

The fact you might save $1000 a year on EV vs gas, but then pay "the same" as gas for the 1 or 2 roadtrips you might need an SC for doesn't change that math much at all.

Yes Tesla's are cool cars and I love then. But look at history and you will see that the car companies that succeed are the ones that create cost effective cars.

Among car companies that actually sell in the US, the oldest is... Mercedes Benz.

Which, ya know, everyone thinks of as a cheap cost-effective brand...right? No? Huh.

The second oldest? Land Rover. You know...those super cost effective land rovers....

So maybe not your best...let's generously call it point...

Which now ICE vehicles cost less up front, cost same now to operate

Except, again, they factually don't cost "the same" to operate for 95% of use cases.

Instead of raising costs, just release adapters for Tesla's to use EVgo, Charge Point, and Electrify America fast chargers. Bam problem solved.

The S/X already have ChaDeMo adapters.

Not sure how that "solves" anything though- since there's vastly less of them, the vast majority of their actual chargers deployed are L2 chargers and apparently not significantly cheaper than much faster superchargers either.

 

[Daniel in SD]

We have 3 chargers in SD area, Downtown charges per hour for parking. Qualcomm is free to charge / free to park but there's always a long line, then Oceanside has the urban chargers but no paid parking.


Tier 3 SDGE,...I was well into tier 3 charging the volt + running AC in August (it was well over 95deg for pretty much the whole month straight). The tesla needs about 2x the charge as the volt for my daily commute. I could see that costing an additional $300-$400 over the $500 I paid if I had the model 3. Tier 1 is really small and 2 goes quickly with AC usage and car charging.

Right now it looks like 80% of our power usage is charging the model 3 at night.

https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/regulatory/1-1-18 Schedule DR Total Rates Table.pdf

No Model 3 vs Model 3:
View attachment 370712

Whenever I see you post about your electric usage I feel bad. I'm also on SDG&E, have solar (8kW) and a heat pump, and have a ~$5 a month bill. You're definitely subsidizing my use of the grid!

The Qualcomm supercharger is now $0.34/kWh. It will be interesting to see if that eliminates the congestion there (I checked this morning and it was still full). Maybe I'll be able to go over there and see if supercharging works on my car.