I need to vent - this car is going from bad to worse

[Darren Donovan]

There’s been enough written about the foibles of EAP, that a prospective buyer should be able to compare the promises with the reality. The reality is what you read here today and has been written about for some time. No, that doesn’t make over-promising right, but it also doesn’t take common sense and a bit of self-education out of the equation.

Do you really need to be an automotive engineer, specializing in autonomous driving, to read of owner’s experiences over a prolonged period of time?

Somehow it doesn't seem right, or legal, to advertise to the general public that your product can do certain things, only for the buyer to find out after the fact that it can't. It is NOT reasonable to expect the buyer to read internet forums to get "real life" accounts of how the car behaves. We have many governmental agencies that are supposed to protect the consumers by ensuring that manufacturers do not lie. Tesla needs to be held accountable. The days of them getting free passes are over, the Model 3 is here.

 

[Max*]

There is absolutely no analogy in your statement to mine. Zero.

I'll break it down for you. Arguing that most manufacturers do it, so it's normal Tesla does it, is in invalid argument.
A. Most manufacturers do not do it to the same extent as Tesla
II. Even if they did, that does not make it normal or acceptable for ANY manufacturer to do it
3. Victim blaming will get you far in life.

 

[Ken7]

I'll break it down for you. Arguing that most manufacturers do it, so it's normal Tesla does it, is in invalid argument.
A. Most manufacturers do not do it to the same extent as Tesla
II. Even if they did, that does not make it normal or acceptable for ANY manufacturer to do it
3. Victim blaming will get you far in life.

A. That’s a subjective assessment
II. Acceptable, no. Normal? See ‘A’ above.
3. I’m not blaming the victims, but I am saying a buyer of any product should do their research. The more expensive that product, the more incumbent it is of the buyer to do their research. Today, with so many means of research available to anyone, this should not be an onerous task.

Yes, I wish all companies were 100% honest about the products they produce. It would also be nice to believe in the tooth fairy.

 

[Buook]

Agreed^ To rely on other companies or government agencies to protect us consumers is in the days of the past. Businesses for the most part are only out there to make a buck and will only reveal as much information about their product as they see fit and what is blatantly required by law. The only person that is going to protect you is yourself

 

[AnxietyRanger]

A. That’s a subjective assessment

Not really, as far as large car companies go. Basically no other car company sells (as in a sale) forward-looking statements.

Or can you think of any? Even a single one where money exchanges hands for a promised future?

Given that this does not happen, breaking those promises does not happen either...

Basically the only thing that springs to mind is when a bunch of car manufacturers lost their rear camera manfacturer due to Fukushima. At that point some of them shipped cars with a future promise of retrofitting attached.

Safe to say, they delivered, though. And that was force majeure.

 

[SMAlset]

I should clarify (and rereading my title, I realize it was a bit incendiary) that I do like my Tesla. It's the best electric car you can buy, and I chose to buy electric. If I got a do-over, I wouldn't make the same decision, but I'm not entirely unhappy with it.

To be frank, however, it'll probably be my last Tesla. The EV avalanche is a-comin', and companies that know how to make cars at scale have few real barriers to entry. The second generation EVs from BMW and Porsche will be tough competition for Tesla.

Elon got what *he* wanted (to force the industry to adopt EVs), but Tesla the Car Company is running out of runway fast. Making stuff is hard, it turns out.

Only on page 2 reading this thread as I respond and I don't know about how other people feel about this but despite the sudden forced acceptance and embracing of battery EVs by the other major car companies, I have way more faith I guess you might call it that Tesla will continue to produce a better product into the foreseeable future than those companies out there wanting to now "mass produce" an EV because countries have essentially backed Tesla's customer appeal and EV acceptance in this market and legislated it to happen.

Kind of an aside but curious did you lease or buy? I wonder if your "convertible" noise is due to a seal issue or unlevel glass. I would definitely have the suspension issue looked at asap and have them look into the wind noise at that time. Stuff does happen and we hear about people's issues on here as a sounding board but I'm sure it represents a really small faction of the experiences of Tesla owners.

Tesla has been at this for way longer than all of these johnny-come-lately EV ventures. Does anyone think that let's say BMW and Porsche won't have car issues and software issues and will somehow be way better than the years' of knowledge that Tesla has in its MS for example? How often will these companies who put out year model cars will be doing software updates (something so foreign to many of them) and will most of their software and driving capabilities come from some third party, sort of customized or not for them? I look at the Android platform with all its various phone manufacturers out there who don't control the underlying software, and users are lucky to get software updates in a timely fashion pushed to them.

Yes, making stuff is hard it turns out. For everyone if they work towards a quality product and keep trying to improve upon it. Somehow I get the feeling at times that people think Tesla is off doing other things and not working towards bettering their cars all the time. I don't believe it for a second.

 

[MikeBur]

I’ve had my fair share of raving praise and ranting criticism with my car. It’s a love, hate, love relationship. I feel for the OP and many others who are seeking cathartic release for their experiences.

I love Tesla created my pure ev, based on their unrelenting courage of conviction to move the world toward sustainable transportation in an open, and transparent, manner. It has spectacular traction control and unprecedented performance and range. +1 Tesla Grin

I hate the way Tesla communicates. I continue to believe they are attempting to do better, and help with actionable feedback and bugs where I can. I have no expectation for any response. Tesla constantly over-promises and under-delivers in the timelines outlined; and oft not at all. Much can be attributed to the unencumbered, and infectious, enthusiasm of their leaders - however, they are continually not learning from their mistakes in communication and have unfortunately converted a number of their vocal advocates into cautious critics. +1 Tesla Frown.

I love the community, the comradery, and Tesla’s drive (pun intended), for continuous execution and improvement. If communication was embraced as a strategy to enable its community more, then it would be a significant buffer against some of the gap between intent and reality. I’m hopeful @JonMc is listening...

 

[alehbaba]

cant wait to see these cars after the 8 yr warrenty mark is up. I think we will see many issues at that time.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I hate the way Tesla communicates. I continue to believe they are attempting to do better, and help with actionable feedback and bugs where I can. I have no expectation for any response. Tesla constantly over-promises and under-delivers in the timelines outlined; and oft not at all. Much can be attributed to the unencumbered, and infectious, enthusiasm of their leaders - however, they are continually not learning from their mistakes in communication and have unfortunately converted a number of their vocal advocates into cautious critics. +1 Tesla Frown.

I love the community, the comradery, and Tesla’s drive (pun intended), for continuous execution and improvement. If communication was embraced as a strategy to enable its community more, then it would be a significant buffer against some of the gap between intent and reality. I’m hopeful @JonMc is listening...

I continue to believe Tesla's communications stems from policy, rather than just being poor due to say, poor communications skills on communications neglect. Therefore to say Tesla has poor communications, for instance, is just describing the cause... not the effect of why Tesla has poor communications.

Unfortunately I find it likely Tesla's communications are part of their strategy - and that's what makes me most wary about the topic. Whatever edge Tesla needs to maintain to drive their strategy forward, they seem to use communications for. Need a boost in enthusiasm, need to buy some time? Elon makes an optimistic or cryptic tweet. Or Tesla.com publishes a carefully worder blog entry. Or JonMc posts on TMC that performance limiters will be removed (then instead they added an even bigger limiter).

And unfortunately, it seems, that communications can be driven more by where they need to get to, than by what they are actually doing or actually have done. To put it nicely. The comms look like merely a method to keep the train rolling, so to speak.

This is just speculation, but it is hard to name any other likely reason for, say, AP2 optimisim in late 2016. Or how Tesla handled many things like P85D HP issue or P90DL performance limiters (both causing lawsuit losses/settlements). Tesla just botching how they spoke about it or Tesla just having been a bit too optimistic and thus misspoke, doesn't ring as the likeliest of explanations...

If Tesla was just trying to communicate as well as possible, but were just hopelessly fumbling it, that would look different than what this is.

Reality is, when it comes to issues (starting from bug fixes in firmware releases and continuing to delays and spec-overshoots whatnot), Tesla does not usually seem open about them. On the contrary, they have time and time again over-promised and under-delivered, as you note as well...

It likely isn't just bad comms. The worst thing is, it reeks intentional. This is of course just speculation, so we can't know, but when if happens often enough, certain likelihoods rise above others.

 

[MikeBur]

I continue to believe Tesla's communications stems from policy, rather than just being poor due to say, poor communications skills on communications neglect. Therefore to say Tesla has poor communications, for instance, is just describing the cause... not the effect of why Tesla has poor communications.

Unfortunately I find it likely Tesla's communications are part of their strategy - and that's what makes me most wary about the topic. Whatever edge Tesla needs to maintain to drive their strategy forward, they seem to use communications for. Need a boost in enthusiasm, need to buy some time? Elon makes an optimistic or cryptic tweet. Or Tesla.com publishes a carefully worder blog entry. Or JonMc posts on TMC that performance limiters will be removed (then instead they added an even bigger limiter).

And unfortunately, it seems, that communications can be driven more by where they need to get to, than by what they are actually doing or actually have done. To put it nicely. The comms look like merely a method to keep the train rolling, so to speak.

This is just speculation, but it is hard to name any other likely reason for, say, AP2 optimisim in late 2016. Or how Tesla handled many things like P85D HP issue or P90DL performance limiters (both causing lawsuit losses/settlements). Tesla just botching how they spoke about it or Tesla just having been a bit too optimistic and thus misspoke, doesn't ring as the likeliest of explanations...

If Tesla was just trying to communicate as well as possible, but were just hopelessly fumbling it, that would look different than what this is.

Reality is, when it comes to issues (starting from bug fixes in firmware releases and continuing to delays and spec-overshoots whatnot), Tesla does not usually seem open about them. On the contrary, they have time and time again over-promised and under-delivered, as you note as well...

It likely isn't just bad comms. The worst thing is, it reeks intentional. This is of course just speculation, so we can't know, but when if happens often enough, certain likelihoods rise above others.

I hear you and whilst your speculation may have some potential, I personally attribute more to incompetence/naivety* than conspiracy. Could Tesla have done better on the comedy of errors of my p85d specs, heck yes. Did they do it out out of mailicious intent? I have to believe no. While the end result is similar: never will I unequivocally evangelise a Tesla product or technology to others before reviewing it personally, I will not waste precious cycles chasing conspiracy theories

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I hear you and whilst your speculation may have some potential, I personally attribute more to incompetence/naivety* than conspiracy. Could Tesla have done better on the comedy of errors of my p85d specs, heck yes. Did they do it out out of mailicious intent? I have to believe no. While the end result is similar: never will I unequivocally evangelise a Tesla product or technology to others before reviewing it personally, I will not waste precious cycles chasing conspiracy theories

Malicious intent is a big word, I'm not thinking Tesla is out to scam the world. But are they bending truth to get to a reality they wish to get to, and ending up doing questionable things in the process? That is a different question.

I guess there comes a time when it is what you either knew or should have known that becomes the key. Claiming ignorance works only so far, if you reasonably would have known this and this likely happens... In many cases, Tesla probably should have known better. And IMO it is possible they did know better, even if they opted for the optimistic route for some short-term benefit... it sees more likely, than not.

But even if we ignore that, they could have communicated openly after the fact - once they noticed their mistake - but instead continued, time and again, not to. That, I think, is the most damaging part. Judging by what we've seen, there seems to be no culture of openness when it comes to the tough stuff.

 

[Ken7]

Not really, as far as large car companies go. Basically no other car company sells (as in a sale) forward-looking statements.

Or can you think of any? Even a single one where money exchanges hands for a promised future?

Given that this does not happen, breaking those promises does not happen either...

Basically the only thing that springs to mind is when a bunch of car manufacturers lost their rear camera manfacturer due to Fukushima. At that point some of them shipped cars with a future promise of retrofitting attached.

Safe to say, they delivered, though. And that was force majeure.

Well, honestly, how could any other car company make 'forward looking claims'? The only car company whose cars gain additional functionality over time is Tesla. The only other car company that provides over-the-air updates for their cars that provide that additional functionality is Tesla.

IOW, buy a car from any other car company and the car you buy is the car you get. Tomorrow, next week, next year. It's functionality doesn't change. Such is not the same with Tesla, so they are the only ones that can legimiately make forward looking claims, even if their time table is overly optimistic.

So, in actuality, they are in a class by themselves when it comes to this kind of thing.

 

[Ken7]

cant wait to see these cars after the 8 yr warrenty mark is up. I think we will see many issues at that time.

And the same could be said about virtually any other car from any other car company. So I'm not really sure what that proves.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Well, honestly, how could any other car company make 'forward looking claims'? The only car company whose cars gain additional functionality over time is Tesla. The only other car company that provides over-the-air updates for their cars that provide that additional functionality is Tesla.

So, in actuality, they are in a class by themselves when it comes to this kind of thing.

They are, but see how it has turned over time for them. To keep the demand levers swinging, they have time and time again resorted to selling current cars based on future features what would come to those cars... and now by AP2 at least, also over-promising and under-delivering on such features.

It doesn't automatically come with the territory. When AP2 came out, Tesla could still have released the hardware, could still have offered all the same future software updates, but they didn't need to paint the arguably misleading picture that they did. What if AP2 has been launched something like this:

"From today, all Tesla's ship with Autopilot 2 hardware: 8 cameras, 1 radar, 12 ultrasonics and an Nvidia supercomputer. At the first stage the car will not have any features using this hardware, though, so it is free with the car, but once more features are available, we'll let you know of the price of those features."

Same with AP1, they did not need to announce that it will one day read traffic lights and meet/find you at the curb and go from highway to highway and whatnot. They could have just said they are now shipping this hardware, period. Announce the software when it is shipping. Ask money for major software features when they are shipping...

That would have been selling what they have now and it would be a perfect approach IMO. It is a slippery slope once you start piling promise on promise and then need to promise even more to keep the attention...

 

[Buster1]

• On my daily stop-and-go commute there is a curving onramp. This is 5mph tops. The car will either slowly drift into the concrete barrier, or slowly drift into the other lane. The instrument display diagram shows that it knows it's putting the wheels over the lanes. I've seen other posts complaining about the same thing.
• Summoning the car into my garage (which I do regularly), it decided to swerve to the left at the last second. I barely stopped it in time, with perhaps a quarter inch to spare.
• Multiple times during busy commutes, the car will decide that it has to dramatically slow down (for absolutely no discernible reason - no overpasses, no signs, just car shadows), causing cars behind me to hit the brakes. I drive with my foot near the accelerator, so I've been able to speed out of those situations, but this is extremely dangerous behavior.

Owner's Manual has Cautions and Warnings about all of the above. It's in B&W.

 

[Ken7]

They are, but see how it has turned over time for them. To keep the demand levers swinging, they have time and time again resorted to selling current cars based on future features what would come to those cars... and now by AP2 at least, also over-promising and under-delivering on such features.

It doesn't automatically come with the territory. When AP2 came out, Tesla could still have released the hardware, could still have offered all the same future software updates, but they didn't need to paint the arguably misleading picture that they did. What if AP2 has been launched something like this:

"From today, all Tesla's ship with Autopilot 2 hardware: 8 cameras, 1 radar, 12 ultrasonics and an Nvidia supercomputer. At the first stage the car will not have any features using this hardware, though, so it is free with the car, but once more features are available, we'll let you know of the price of those features."

Same with AP1, they did not need to announce that it will one day read traffic lights and meet/find you at the curb and go from highway to highway and whatnot. They could have just said they are now shipping this hardware, period. Announce the software when it is shipping. Ask money for major software features when they are shipping...

That would have been selling what they have now and it would be a perfect approach IMO. It is a slippery slope once you start piling promise on promise and then need to promise even more to keep the attention...

Can't argue with that.

 

[jmitchell]

I understand the frustration, but remember that Tesla decided to essentially start from scratch after moving away from Mobileye and making their own hardware. They aren't five years in to development, but rather only one or two. What you bought was a new beta product.

These posts reaffirm my contentment with my 2012 MS, and I probably won't be upgrading for a long while.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I understand the frustration, but remember that Tesla decided to essentially start from scratch after moving away from Mobileye and making their own hardware. They aren't five years in to development, but rather only one or two. What you bought was a new beta product.

These posts reaffirm my contentment with my 2012 MS, and I probably won't be upgrading for a long while.

Yep, but nobody forced them to make the grandiose pre-announcements they did. Nor start taking $8000 in pre-payments.

They could have just announced updated hardware shipping and announced (and charged for) software features once those became available.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I understand the frustration, but remember that Tesla decided to essentially start from scratch after moving away from Mobileye and making their own hardware. They aren't five years in to development, but rather only one or two. What you bought was a new beta product.

These posts reaffirm my contentment with my 2012 MS, and I probably won't be upgrading for a long while.

Ditto. My 2013 pre-AP Model S actually delivered on the advertised list of features and specifications. Unlike what is happening today. It's such a shame that Tesla vis-a-vis Musk is pissing away its credibility.