ICED in Buckeye

[Teo]

I'm glad there are so many reasonable people in this forum. In official Tesla forums when I said Tesla is doing it wrong by allowing ICE to park at some supercharge stations, I was attacked by fanboys. In some stations the signage is clearer but unfortunately not for discouraging ICE.

In Washington State it is illegal for ICE to park in EV charging station
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/laws/law/WA/10692

Plug-In Electric Vehicle (PEV) Charging Signage and Parking Regulations
A PEV charging station must be indicated by vertical signage that properly identifies the station and indicates that it is only for PEV charging. The signage must be consistent with the U.S. Federal Highway Administration's Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices, and the station must be indicated by green pavement markings. A PEV charging station is defined as a public or private parking space that is served by charging equipment with the primary purpose of transferring electric energy to a battery or other energy storage device in a PEV. Any person who parks a vehicle in a PEV charging station parking space and does not connect to the equipment is subject to a fine of $124. (Reference Revised Code of Washington 46.08.185)

Here is a website by Washington State Department of Transportation (check the about page) displaying the proper signage EV stations are required to have:
http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/evsigns.htm

However Ellensburg Supercharger doesn't have either of these signs that are required. As you can see the law says it must have the signage. It is not optional. It applies to private parking spaces as well.

If you check the pictures in this topic for Ellensburg Supercharger, you don't see those signs.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...rcharger/page4?p=535814&viewfull=1#post535814

 

[dsm363]

Yes, when it is free for them now!

Free if anyone is allowed to block the spots and there are no state allows that make that illegal doesn't help anyone. I'm saying that if this becomes a big problem, having 'private' Tesla property might allow them to dictate parking rules. I don't know that though.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Teo,

You were called to task in the Tesla Forums for your misinformed statements that Tesla's signs were not in compliance with state law, which couldn't be farther from the truth. You kept brow beating everyone by repeating over and over again that Tesla is violating the law, that what they are doing is illegal. The good members of the Tesla Forum pointed out to you multiple times that signage requirements only apply if the private property owner wishes to be able to fine and/or tow offending vehicles. The signage is entirely up to the property owner, not the state, and depends completely on how much enforcement the property owner does or does not want from local law enforcement.

You were also called by the members for making outlandish accusations against Tesla and generally causing trouble.

 

[Teo]

I don't agree with Tesla's shared stations idea. I think it undermines regulations which I see as the only long term solution. I think ICED station problems will discourage and delay mass adoption in the US. I still think the Ellensburg station doesn't comply, but it won't be enforced. However when ICE problems become clear and people start to complain, obviously Tesla will be have to change their approach. So for practical purposes it is not an important discussion whether Ellensburg complies or not.

I want electric cars to succeed and hopefully the adoption will be quick enough to prevent big climate issues. I wasn't interested in CO2 and climate change until the weather forecast office here in the UK started sayings things like in 2040 every summer will be hotter than the all time record heat in 2003 (link).

 

[tezco]

Even in the progressive Green town of Boulder, our EV charging stations are continually ICED. In the two years since the City installed J1772 stations at the City recreation centers, I have only been able to charge once. ICED in every other instance.

As long as charging stations are installed in "close-in" locations and there are no financial disincentives (ie parking tickets) this will be a continual problem, particularly when Tesla aquiesces to signage that makes it clear that ICE'ing is permissible.

This will ultimately bite Tesla in the butt when owners become afraid to travel due to the uncertainty of timely access to charging. Look at what happened to cross country travel during the so-called Arab embargo. I still remember sleeping in my car at gas stations that were closed when they ran out of gas. Fortunately I never had to wait more than 24 hours for fresh gas to arrive, but I still am a bit reticent to venture out on a long distance trip in the Tesla due to the limited opportunities for charging, and the slight, but real risk of getting stuck somewhere due to ICED or broken superchargers. The hassle of having to wait for a charge to complete is bad enough, but having to sit in the car searching for an RV campground is more than I want to put up with when I'm on vacation.

 

[Teo]

This will ultimately bite Tesla in the butt when owners become afraid to travel due to the uncertainty of timely access ...

I agree completely. I also want to add that removing a perception from public mind is extremely difficult. Once people think that EVs are no good because you might not be able to charge when traveling long distance, it will be extremely difficult and costly for Tesla to remove that perception. Some extreme measures like relocating many stations to Tesla owned land might be needed. I think the biggest danger for Tesla is fanboyism.

 

[igotzzoom]

I know this may come across as elitist, but it might come down to charging stations or spots being behind a gate, accessed by a built-in proximity sensor or smartphone app. Especially in areas with large concentrations of EVs, ICE-ing will continue to be a problem, especially in densely-populated areas.

 

[Lloyd]

I'm glad there are so many reasonable people in this forum. In official Tesla forums when I said Tesla is doing it wrong by allowing ICE to park at some supercharge stations, I was attacked by fanboys. In some stations the signage is clearer but unfortunately not for discouraging ICE.

View attachment 52182

In Washington State it is illegal for ICE to park in EV charging station
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/laws/law/WA/10692


Here is a website by Washington State Department of Transportation (check the about page) displaying the proper signage EV stations are required to have:
http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/evsigns.htm

However Ellensburg Supercharger doesn't have either of these signs that are required. As you can see the law says it must have the signage. It is not optional. It applies to private parking spaces as well.

View attachment 52183View attachment 52184

If you check the pictures in this topic for Ellensburg Supercharger, you don't see those signs.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...rcharger/page4?p=535814&viewfull=1#post535814

This is pretty funny!! If you go to the bottom of the Green Highway article you cite..... Tesla is shown as an example of how the signage should be!! You did not read your article to the end!

 

[David99]

I've used the Buckeye SC several times. It is a huge parking lot with few stores. At no time of the day does it fill up. Out of all places, Tesla picked 8 spots right by Carl's Jr, right where everyone drives in when going there. Since we are all extremely lazy people, these parking spots are the most used ones. This is just asking for trouble. It would have been much smarter to install the chargers to the left of the restaurant. It's still very close and just a few more steps but no one else parks there ever.
I'm sure Tesla thought this issue through. I doubt it's a random decision. Maybe they thought there is a positive effect in having their beautiful cars parked in the prime spot for everyone to see and drool over. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[islandbayy]

I've used the Buckeye SC several times. It is a huge parking lot with few stores. At no time of the day does it fill up. Out of all places, Tesla picked 8 spots right by Carl's Jr, right where everyone drives in when going there. Since we are all extremely lazy people, these parking spots are the most used ones. This is just asking for trouble. It would have been much smarter to install the chargers to the left of the restaurant. It's still very close and just a few more steps but no one else parks there ever.
I'm sure Tesla thought this issue through. I doubt it's a random decision. Maybe they thought there is a positive effect in having their beautiful cars parked in the prime spot for everyone to see and drool over. Maybe I'm wrong.

It was more or less a decision about length of run for the electrical. Running the wire sizes and placement of transformers and equipment...Not cheap

 

[Teo]

Lloyd,

The station in those images is fine. Please check the pictures here for Ellensburg that doesn't have either the blue or the red no parking signs because Tesla wanted to make the host happy.

Of course I read it. I have done so much research on this I even read the historical background of the regulation and how Seva (Seattle Electric Vehicle Association) and Jeff Finn pushed for this change. I read PDF documents by Jeff Finn, the former State Legislative Issues coordinator where he shows different green floor markings besides those poor straight lines they ended up picking. This is all old discussion from official Tesla forums.

At the time when I said Ellensburg station doesn't comply, some people suggested because Tesla stations are on private property the regulations don't apply to Tesla. Then I found that website and showed those images on the page (this was in the official Tesla forums). Then they ditched that argument about regulations not applying on private land. They just made up another argument. The current argument is that Tesla can decide whether or not to classify a location as a charging station by putting up this blue sign.

If Tesla doesn't put up that sign (in Ellensburg they don't) then the regulations don't apply which means they also don't have to put up the following no parking sign (in Ellensburg they don't). Anyway that's the current argument by AmpedRealtor a few messages above and some other over enthusiastic fans who think Tesla can never make a poor choice.

Of course I disagree. I think Ellensburg should have both of these signs. Tesla is required to put them but they didn't because parking space limited at that location. Just look at these pictures. Also the host wants ICE to park there too. So Tesla finds a middle ground where they get free space from hosts but in return ICE is also allowed.

 

[bonnie]

Ultimately it is Tesla's call, no? It is their customers and their brand. You're not suggesting forcing Tesla to do something differently, are you?

 

[Teo]

What you do in the US is up to people from the US. I'm just researching and making information available. There are already some people in this topic who think ICE shouldn't park at charging stations. If they are not happy they can complain to Tesla. If some of these people didn't know about the Washington State regulations, now they know and the next time they complain to Tesla they can mention that. If people want they can contact Washington State Department of Transportation and complain to them. By the way, contact information is here. But like I said I don't think they will enforce.

 

[Chipper]

What you do in the US is up to people from the US. I'm just researching and making information available. There are already some people in this topic who think ICE shouldn't park at charging stations. If they are not happy they can complain to Tesla. If some of these people didn't know about the Washington State regulations, now they know and the next time they complain to Tesla they can mention that. If people want they can contact Washington State Department of Transportation and complain to them. By the way, contact information is here. But like I said I don't think they will enforce.

Teo, thanks for all your voluminous research! Your concern for the laws and regulations of Washington State and the history of these decisions is touching as well as impressive. Now where did I put that beater of mine??? I can still tell its a horse over there....

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I've used the Buckeye SC several times. It is a huge parking lot with few stores. At no time of the day does it fill up. Out of all places, Tesla picked 8 spots right by Carl's Jr, right where everyone drives in when going there. Since we are all extremely lazy people, these parking spots are the most used ones. This is just asking for trouble. It would have been much smarter to install the chargers to the left of the restaurant. It's still very close and just a few more steps but no one else parks there ever.
I'm sure Tesla thought this issue through. I doubt it's a random decision. Maybe they thought there is a positive effect in having their beautiful cars parked in the prime spot for everyone to see and drool over. Maybe I'm wrong.

I live in Buckeye and drive by the Carl's Jr. superchargers every single day. I've yet to see an ICE parked in any of those spaces. While there may occasionally be a vehicle parked there when I'm not looking, it doesn't rise to the level of an ICEing problem.

 

[Lloyd]

Why would you want other EV's showing up at the Tesla station where they can't charge? That's just silly, and the signs would be meaningless.

 

[tezco]

Ultimately it is Tesla's call, no? It is their customers and their brand.

I'm sure Tesla is trying to figure out how to deal with this problem, and how to balance costs to minimize the potential for ICE'ing. I applaud them for the speed with which they have rolled out the network. Personally, I'm willing to walk a reasonable distance to lessen the problem, but that would lessen the advertising value of being right up front, where the action is. For me the value of advertising is much less than the value associated with immediate access to a charging stall, but I understand Tesla sees it differently. Some day there will be enough EV's on the road to support for-profit charging stations, and you can bet those station owners won't allow parking unless you are actively charging. Or perhaps someday, the disincentives (fines) will be high enough to attract local law inforcement's interest in generating revenue, and some real policing will begin.