If you fast charge, Tesla will permanently throttle charging

[No2DinosaurFuel]

I would like to point out some things people tend miss.

1) @JonMc has stated it affected less than 1%. The question is should we believe that number? They already lied about a lot of numbers. Only they know how many vehicles are affected and they are not giving us that. Highly doubt they would anyways. As of now, I think there are quite a few people affected here including me. I suspect it's much higher especially when you exclude the older battery tech Model S. And include the X and what not. I, for one, do not believe the less than 1% number.

2) Now you have a dilemma. If you supercharge often, you will decrease your supercharging rate, but you maintain your range for longer. If you charge at home, you forgo your range, but you retain your fast supercharging. This is a tough pill to choose. Both are not good. It might be better just to not drive/charge. Personally I think Tesla should come clean and tell users this when they sell the car. If I knew this then, I might have not purchased the car and wait for next gen battery tech without this problem to buy.

3) Most people say it's only 5 minutes. But if you have a long trip with multiple supercharges involved. It really adds up. Combine it with congested, malfunctioning superchargers. I wonder really if tesla was really ICE replacing EV car to purchase. One of the main reason for buying the tesla is for their superchargers and now that I found out more, I am no longer recommending teslas for my buddies who want an EV to replace their ICE cars.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Less than 1% is what he said. People who D.C. Charge that much will know. No need to sow FUD. FWIW, I've had 90kW cap on my A pack since I got car. Really ticked me off when I discovered it, but in reality impact is pretty minimal. Worse to get paired at a busy SC. That's worse than 90 cap and can happen to anyone.

Before these thread(s), it seems not a lot of people outside of Tesla knew. What people will learn and think of it remains to be seen.

As corrected before, yes less than 1% was stated.

 

[torvalstrom]

I wish the tech guy simply had said, 'everything is under spec. Your battery is good'.

OP would have simply moved on with no noticeable impact to his trips. It is the reason why doctors often don't talk technical mumbo jumbo to their patients.

The patient is far better served by hearing the words, "You look fantastic Jonnny. Just need to relax, get out more and enjoy life. "

While I can't speak for the OP, I can definitely say on my own behalf that I didn't move on after being told my battery pack was just fine after having a service because my charge rate at the superchargers dropped from 115-117kW to 92-95kW without any explanation.
I've been trying to figure out what happened since february.

In my case, the 7 minutes additional charging time on my commute adds up to more than two additional hours per month combined.
And I primarily (measured in kWh) charge at home on a normal 11 kW type 2 charger.

Again, the issue at hand here is that Tesla are making these restrictions without communicating them.

The majority of us would probably be more than happy to accept preventative limits on our vehicles if we just knew what was going on.

I love my Model S P90D and wouldn't trade it in for anything other than a P100D. But Tesla needs to step up their game and be open and honest about what they are doing and why - especially if they chose to impose post-purchase limitations.

Tor

 

[T34ME]

So to be safe Tesla should mention the possibility.

Yes, Tesla should mention that you might REALLY like their cars because they get a 90%+ approval rating. They should also mention that only occasionally will you find donuts in the service center for the clients. Need I go on?

 

[tomas]

I would argue given the response, this was definitely not known by the community given the amount of "BS" and "oh this is new" kind of responses it got in the two threads.

No, that DC charging is bad for your car, while a theory on Supercharging on some level, never IMO had materialized as "do it a lot and your kWs will be limited by 5 minutes when Supercharging".

I challenge you to find such common conversations where it was known that frequent DC charging would slow DC charging permanently... let alone clear disclosure by Tesla in manuals.



The jury is still out on whether or not there is some charger. @JonMc did not comment on that, but the Service Center did:

"Over a specific amount" does NOT explicitly mean a counter of number of charge sessions. It does mean they are measuring SOMETHING.

 

[tomas]

Guess I should stop using public free toilets, water fountains, and trash cans since I have all 3 at home. I'm such a free loading bastard.....

Ok. I want to see you use EXCLUSIVELY public toilets.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

"Over a specific amount" does NOT explicitly mean a counter of number of charge sessions. It does mean they are measuring SOMETHING.

Sure, but the wording "once vehicle has been DC fast charged over a specified amount" does not sound like e.g. battery wear / cell resistance analysis. It does sound more like the amount of DC fast charge is somehow measured and a specific cut-off point implemented. So a counter of some sort (DC kWh? DC minutes?) sounds plausible.

 

[No2DinosaurFuel]

Tesla is too scammy to actually put real information on their website. They are all about the hype and BS to scam unsuspecting customers. Ask me how I know!

Sorry Tesla, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice.....you know the rest.

Instead of preposterous limits, you should be replacing battery packs on the "1% of customers that are effected."

If it's only 1%, why not just suck it up and replace their packs? Why sour the relationship with all your current and possible future customers?

The problem with replacement is you will still have the same problem. I think Tesla should find the right battery chemistry that doesn't slow down your charge speed after many supercharges and allow all affected users a free upgrade to that battery tech down the road.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Ok. I want to see you use EXCLUSIVELY public toilets.

Not possible, @Naonak has reserved them.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

The problem with replacement is you will still have the same problem. I think Tesla should find the right battery chemistry that doesn't slow down your charge speed after many supercharges and allow all affected users a free upgrade to that battery tech down the road.

Anything to the idea that Model 3 / 2170's might be superior in this regard?

Tesla battery researcher unveils new chemistry to increase lifecycle at high voltage

 

[tomas]

Amusing that you seem to feel you have more information about lithium ion behavior than I do.



The difference which you seem to be ignoring is that some people specifically asked Tesla if Supercharging would cause problems and were told it would not. I believe that is an error on Tesla's part which should be corrected.

Yeah, or possibly they truly did not know at the time. Maybe they thought the BMS and taper were adequate to avoid caps, but then found risks from the data they collected. I do know that my eGolf manual says in capital letters that fast D.C. Charging done too often will degrade battery.

At any rate, I do think Tesla should poblish some rough summary of their BMS parameters so those who want can geek out on it.

 

[schonelucht]

I am far from the smartest person on this thread/these forums but no matter what I was told in written or verbal comments/messages from Tesla I just thought it logical that over time fast charging would have some effect on the rate of charging and battery life.

If you google it, then there are numerous threads where people ask if supercharging harms the battery (in general terms). Not a single one that I have seen has ever mentioned that peak supercharging rate may decline. Even more directly, there have also been numerous threads where people ask why their supercharging is slow. Not once was the reply : "this is to be expected after supercharging a lot over the lifetime of your battery" And some of these threads have replies by usual posters here with literally 1000's of posts and a (rightful) reputation of being some of the best informed on Tesla. Yet this thread was still a shock and OP was still dismissed for the very first days by many until he posted the scanned service order... If it was so self-evident that peak charging rate goes down over time of DC charging, then why is it is literally impossible to find one single cite of this before this thread blew up?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

If you google it, then there are numerous threads where people ask if supercharging harms the battery (in general terms). Not a single one that I have seen has ever mentioned that peak supercharging rate may decline. Even more directly, there have also been numerous threads where people ask why their supercharging is slow. Not once was the reply : "this is to be expected after supercharging a lot over the lifetime of your battery" And some of these threads have replies by usual posters here with literally 1000's of posts and a (rightful) reputation of being some of the best informed on Tesla. Yet this thread was still a shock and OP was still dismissed for the very first days by many until he posted the scanned service order... If it was so self-evident that peak charging rate goes down over time of DC charging, then why is it is literally impossible to find one single cite of this before this thread blew up?

Because we as a community did not know.

And if we did not know, then the average Tesla owner surely did not know either (those few excepted whom Service Center told this upon complaining).

 

[tomas]

Here's the problem, Tesla seems to have plans to increase the number of urban superchargers to service those who have no or limited access to AC charging. If they intend to have people charge almost exclusively from high power DC sources they need to disclose that it may have increased negative effects on the pack over time. Specifically, when asked about the effects of high power DC charging, they cannot say it will have no negative effect as they seem to have done in the past.

Geez, given Tesla's track record for creativity and innovation, don't you think they are working on or have already fixed this in new battery and BMS design? I know they somehow fixed what limited my A pack.

 

[AlMc]

If you google it, then there are numerous threads where people ask if supercharging harms the battery (in general terms). Not a single one that I have seen has ever mentioned that peak supercharging rate may decline. Even more directly, there have also been numerous threads where people ask why their supercharging is slow. Not once was the reply : "this is to be expected after supercharging a lot over the lifetime of your battery" And some of these threads have replies by usual posters here with literally 1000's of posts and a (rightful) reputation of being some of the best informed on Tesla. Yet this thread was still a shock and OP was still dismissed for the very first days by many until he posted the scanned service order... If it was so self-evident that peak charging rate goes down over time of DC charging, then why is it is literally impossible to find one single cite of this before this thread blew up?

I agree with your assertion (and that of the OP) that it was never expressed to us by Tesla but I still logically believed that battery life, power it retained and rate at which it would take a charge would diminish over time.

I am neither a chemist or basic science researcher, just 'made sense'.

 

[Adrian]

I am updating my summary from message #385 with the latest. To summarize the recent data points we have on DC charging causing throttling/degradation:

1) A scanned service report from Tesla via @Naonak (plus original report of course) (in U.S.)
2) We also have @jbcarioca calling a Tesla service center where the tech recalled DC degradation issues with "H" packs (in U.S.)
3) We have an initial confirmation (after a recollection) that famed Tesla user @Bjorn had noticed this throttling on his car, Bjorn is a noted Tesla enthusiast and vlogger (in Norway)
4) @ODE90D having heard "unofficially" from several Tesla employees about this, so not necessarily a first-hand report of throttling (in Italy)
5) @El Boricua has suspected throttling of his car that he Superchargers due to lack of apartment charging, not confirmed throttling (in U.S.)
6) The mileage mentioned by Naonak and ODE90D is around the 30,000 miles region, after/around which this is said/speculated to happen with frequent DC charging usage
7) So far, most of the above reports seem to be of 90 kWh cars (Naonak, Bjorn, ODE90D, El Boricua), with some 85 kWh owners like @yobigd20 with high mileage chiming in reports of no throttling, as also noted by e.g. @jelloslug in the other thread
8) There is at least one report from an 85 kWh owner, as noted by @Panu over here

@MP3Mike kindly collected the affected @Naonak's specs in one post: We also have this counter-example from @thefortunes, a non-affected heavy DC user:

Finally, Forbes has published a summary/opinion piece on this:

Use It, And Lose It: 'Clandestine Counters' Cause Tesla Revolt

Did I miss anything?

There is at least this report from 85-battery owner experiencing throttling.

This, in addition to a couple of reports from the Norwegian forum, are all seemingly cars bought without the 5 kWh upgrade - so they are 90 kWh packs as well. So far it seems contained to the "new" chemistry used in the 90 kWh packs, as there has been no reports of 100 kWh cars being throttled afaik.

Fair enough. I agree CHAdeMO as a primary charging is a much smaller amount than those affected.

After this news, it will remain so.

CHAdeMO or DC home charging will quickly become more common very soon, as cheaper systems in the 6-20 kW range have just begun to go on sale. You can essentially almost build your own for the same cost as an AC install. I'm looking into a system similar to @beingpaulp to tie into a DC storage system with solar. You can skip some conversion loss if you have 3-phase power available and utilise a DC charger with CHAdeMO plug for instance. I'd be more than slightly annoyed if a daily DC charge at 6 kW would negatively impact my charging speeds elsewhere. I understand the need to throttle at high speed, but simply having a counter tick every time you plug in a DC source is wrong imo.

 

[Canuck]

I am no longer recommending teslas for my buddies who want an EV to replace their ICE cars.

Man overboard!

No offence meant, but I'm glad I'm not one of your buddies. If I was talked out of buying my Tesla because of this issue and others my quality of life would be less since I get so much satisfaction from my vehicle.

 

[ODE90D]

Just show me ONE 90D with +50K miles on the odometer that can charge with a peak above 100 kW - and I will rest my case. All 90Ds will be throttled as they get older and when does it stop? How slow charging can Tesla get away with in their attempt to stay out of warranty claims?

 

[Cloxxki]

If one is in the market for a 2nd hand 90. Two identical cars turn up, similar mileage and one has throttling (smart enough to ask/check), and the other doesn't. How much more is the non-throttled one worth? Difference might be 5-6 figures, regardless of intended charging protocols? It's to be sold on again, typically...

 

[schonelucht]

I would like to point out some things people tend miss.

1) @JonMc has stated it affected less than 1%. The question is should we believe that number? They already lied about a lot of numbers. Only they know how many vehicles are affected and they are not giving us that. Highly doubt they would anyways. As of now, I think there are quite a few people affected here including me. I suspect it's much higher especially when you exclude the older battery tech Model S. And include the X and what not. I, for one, do not believe the less than 1% number.

I have a little bit more faith in the 1% number than you (albeit I must admit all I can base it on is faith). However, the Tesla fleet is very young. The median age is just over 1 year. The right metric we need is : how many cars will be affected after 4 years? After 6 years? After 8 years? And secondly, as a buyer of a CPO, how do I know if I am buying a 1% car or a 99% car?

For those who think this isn't a big deal. 5 minutes on a 30 minute charge is over 15%. Here's a thought experiment : if Tesla were to announce that all A stalls will be throttled like this from now on but B stall still unlimited, would you plug in an A or B stall? Or differently, if there was an option to pay for 'ultra fast charging' which would be 5 minutes faster on average. How many would pick that option? Sure, if you are a retired person who's only road tripping for holiday : who cares. But other people buy Teslas too. My lawyer bills by 6 minutes increments and drives a Tesla. He's supposedly cheap but even then I wouldn't want to pay his additional commute time should his car turn out to be a 1% er.