PR has always been spin regardless of the century or institution.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
roblab
Active Member
I see how kind some are to the people here who are trying to blow this completely out of proportion. And then there are those who know nothing and want to speculate.
I especially liked the scenario where someone can charge at 220 v /13 a (somewhere in EU), which comes out to less than 3 kWh, about half of what my garage outlet puts out. Then he complains that he must charge 30 hours before a trip, which figures to filling to 100% from ZERO. And how often does he make this trip, in which he is so unfortunately inconvenienced?
Really, some people are not ready for electric efficiency, power, cleanness (I own solar), quietness. It's way too hard to understand how batteries may slowly degenerate (does anyone own a cell phone that doesn't last as long as it did?) and how heat increases that degeneration, and how supercharging at 100 kW creates more heat than charging overnight at 7 kW (anyone own a phone that caught fire while quick charging?). Some people learn slowly, some never do. Some believe what they read here. Some take it with a large grain of salt.
But this has been know before Tesla sold a car. Batteries degrade. Heat speeds up degradation. Slowing charging lowers heat buildup. And by my calculations and hundreds of others, the extended time of supercharging (arriving at 10%, charging to 50% for the next leg) MIGHT cause one to wait another 5 or so minutes. This shock and pretend horror over what Tesla does or didn't do is WAY silly.
And anyone charging at home should get their outlet fixed. Even at 30 amps, it takes my car about 4 or 5 hours to make up what I used during the day, while I sleep or watch TV.
Just enjoy your car. Or buy a gas car and be blown away when you find out gas can explode with the force of eight sticks of dynamite per gallon.
I especially liked the scenario where someone can charge at 220 v /13 a (somewhere in EU), which comes out to less than 3 kWh, about half of what my garage outlet puts out. Then he complains that he must charge 30 hours before a trip, which figures to filling to 100% from ZERO. And how often does he make this trip, in which he is so unfortunately inconvenienced?
Really, some people are not ready for electric efficiency, power, cleanness (I own solar), quietness. It's way too hard to understand how batteries may slowly degenerate (does anyone own a cell phone that doesn't last as long as it did?) and how heat increases that degeneration, and how supercharging at 100 kW creates more heat than charging overnight at 7 kW (anyone own a phone that caught fire while quick charging?). Some people learn slowly, some never do. Some believe what they read here. Some take it with a large grain of salt.
But this has been know before Tesla sold a car. Batteries degrade. Heat speeds up degradation. Slowing charging lowers heat buildup. And by my calculations and hundreds of others, the extended time of supercharging (arriving at 10%, charging to 50% for the next leg) MIGHT cause one to wait another 5 or so minutes. This shock and pretend horror over what Tesla does or didn't do is WAY silly.
And anyone charging at home should get their outlet fixed. Even at 30 amps, it takes my car about 4 or 5 hours to make up what I used during the day, while I sleep or watch TV.
Just enjoy your car. Or buy a gas car and be blown away when you find out gas can explode with the force of eight sticks of dynamite per gallon.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Why can't we just enjoy our car and get an exact answer from Tesla as to what exactly triggers the throttling?
Guilty as charged.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
I consider it strange (the first term in your preferred dictionary) and irrational (one of the leading descriptors.)
I appreciate that you may not be familiar with charging rates in Europe, but you are mistaken in doubting that experience - or its relevance. It is reality for thousands of Tesla owners, I'm sure.
220V/13A is perfectly normal home charging rate from a Schuko, the most common household plug in Europe. And yes, it is slow (though not 5-15 slow). I've had to use 8-11A at times to keep the fuses from blowing in some locations, since while rated for 16A that is not for continuous and electrical setups vary.
Go above that and you need industrial plugs (think RV parks) and those may not be found in homes other than for stoves (or dedicated EV charging setups), because the regular Schuko is sufficient (unlike a 5-15) for driving pretty much everything else, including dryers, so there has traditionally been no need to have anything else in homes.
Tesla Mobile Connector is limited at 15A max on Schuko.
Whether or not you can get something better installed depends on the location, of course. Have a new detached house, no problem. Live in an antique apartment building, a problem. In that case talked about here, the poster said getting a better plug was difficult due to regulations or other realities...
Last edited:
Yes, I understand it is a limit on the peak charge rate. My point is we do not know enough to say whether or not that peak charge rate remains the same in the future, so telling owners to just enjoy their cars and DC charge at when needed may not be the best advice. At the very least, adding a bit of caution there so they'll know to think about this/follow this topic might be smart. No?
That we do not know is not speculation, it is a fact. We do not know. We hardly have enough data to say conclusively much anything on the topic. I agree it is speculation to embellish this more beyond simply saying we don't know, though. The 15 minutes example, for instance, of course was just a speculative/rhetorical number - speculation.
But I mean, last time we blindly trusted @JonMc over on the Ludicrous thread counters to be removed turned into limitations in all Performance cars. There may be more to this and Tesla doesn't exactly have a history of being super-forthcoming about these things. The reluctance of even some forum members to support sharing this information widely suggests that this is a tricky topic publicity-wise.
People seem to have motivations to not be too open about it? So that may be affecting what we hear. Thus it is only wise to admit we have hardly been told enough to know with confidence if 5 minutes is the end of the story. It may well be, and I hope it is, but since we don't know how the battery chemistry behaves and analysis works, it is hard to say.
Feel free to explain if you disagree, you know I'll listen and am genuinely interested.
Just saw that Electrek has confirmation from Tesla.
The Model S is an amazing vehicle, but WOW is Tesla a tough company to deal with. Do they get some sick pleasure from defending themselves in class action lawsuits?
F! Guys, get it together! Stop thinking you are more clever than your customers, (news flash: you aren't.) and just be honest about any changes you need to make. I would be totally cool with that, and I think others would agree.
I wonder how many other software degrades we have unwittingly applied in the interest of doodle screens and rainbow roads?
Side note: Buying a used Tesla just became more involved that buying a used Porsche, for those that know what I'm referring to...
The Model S is an amazing vehicle, but WOW is Tesla a tough company to deal with. Do they get some sick pleasure from defending themselves in class action lawsuits?
F! Guys, get it together! Stop thinking you are more clever than your customers, (news flash: you aren't.) and just be honest about any changes you need to make. I would be totally cool with that, and I think others would agree.
I wonder how many other software degrades we have unwittingly applied in the interest of doodle screens and rainbow roads?
Side note: Buying a used Tesla just became more involved that buying a used Porsche, for those that know what I'm referring to...
krouebi
Member
Hi @roblab ,
I confess, the "someone somewhere in Europe":
was me.
And yes, unfortunately, this is REALITY in one of the most beautiful countries in the world: Italy. A common household connection is quite simply limited to 3 kW. In a way, we are privileged that our vehicle is parked in a garage with a separate power connection, so we can dedicate the full available amount to charging. Otherwise we'd have to juggle around like we do in our home, not using ANY two power-hungry appliances at the same time.
You write:
Easy for you to say - here it's not possible. Getting a decent outlet like the one we have at our other home requires special permits and is horrendously expensive.
And yes, if we go the 130 km (one way) to Milan (not really unusual for us) and decide not to go an additional 15 kms south of the city to supercharge before returning home, and go by the normal, logical route, we will inevitably come back with a rather empty battery, facing a 24-30 hour charging period before we can do anything more than a very short trip.
Certainly, changing habits is part of the Tesla experience: The typical Milan trip can now be rearranged, adding 20 km and ½ hour to the travel time, passing by the only supercharger near here - on a mountain pass in Switzerland, where there is ZERO to do except sitting in the Tesla waiting for it to charge.
I confess, the "someone somewhere in Europe":
was me.
And yes, unfortunately, this is REALITY in one of the most beautiful countries in the world: Italy. A common household connection is quite simply limited to 3 kW. In a way, we are privileged that our vehicle is parked in a garage with a separate power connection, so we can dedicate the full available amount to charging. Otherwise we'd have to juggle around like we do in our home, not using ANY two power-hungry appliances at the same time.
You write:
Easy for you to say - here it's not possible. Getting a decent outlet like the one we have at our other home requires special permits and is horrendously expensive.
And yes, if we go the 130 km (one way) to Milan (not really unusual for us) and decide not to go an additional 15 kms south of the city to supercharge before returning home, and go by the normal, logical route, we will inevitably come back with a rather empty battery, facing a 24-30 hour charging period before we can do anything more than a very short trip.
Certainly, changing habits is part of the Tesla experience: The typical Milan trip can now be rearranged, adding 20 km and ½ hour to the travel time, passing by the only supercharger near here - on a mountain pass in Switzerland, where there is ZERO to do except sitting in the Tesla waiting for it to charge.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Doubtful since any chemistry should be well tested before it goes into any vehicle. The long standing generally accepted knowledge among battery experts was that higher C rate charging will negatively impact cells to some degree. The only real surprise to me is that it seems to only be affecting charge acceptance rate and not capacity and discharge rate but I'd expect a battery chemist to be aware of that and why it happens. So to be safe Tesla should mention the possibility. Maybe they thought the impact would be so minor and affect such a small minority of people that it wouldn't be an issue, and for most it won't be, but again, they cannot specifically tell people that frequent high powered charging won't have any impact, since it might.
Totally agree, more information is needed on what triggers the throttling.
Based on what's been confirmed with a low mileage but high use of a lower power DC system, it may really be as unsophisticated as a simple counter of DC charges, even if those DC charges are at a low rate.
It still boggles my mind that people are making such a big deal over something that doesn't affect more than 99% of Tesla owners, and for the less than 1% who are affected it's an additional 5 minutes when supercharging only if starting from a low state of charge, in order to protect the battery. Unless you're keeping track of supercharging on a spreadsheet, with all the variables that can affect charging rate, would anyone even notice the difference in real life? Weather and condition of the supercharger cables are more of a factor than this.
And @u00mem9, the explanation from Tesla was posted HERE, and Electrek was just reporting Jon McNeill's comments from HERE.
And @u00mem9, the explanation from Tesla was posted HERE, and Electrek was just reporting Jon McNeill's comments from HERE.
We're seeing it on multiple cars in Denmark with the 90 kWh packs. Including mine.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Of course. We all know Tesla is a psychotic, masochist corporation...
What surprises me is that people expect no problems from any company, and especially from a new automobile company using relatively new technology. Of course Tesla could handle this issue, and others, in a much better way. But that's par for the course for any business. The test for me is reasonableness and not perfection. Tesla still seems like a reasonable company to me, despite this new throttling issue.
We need to hold Tesla's feet to the flame without blowing things out of proportion, at least in my view.
@TexasEV
I'm going to take the liberty of re-using a post I just did on electrek on the same topic. Hope you'll forgive my lazyness ... it's 10:21 pm here in Denmark
For me, as an owner of a Model S P90D, the decrease in supercharger rate causes a very real, measurable 7 minute delay on my daily commute - and I charge primarily on type 2 slow charging at my home.
I only use supercharging, because I have to in order to reach my destination (the alternative being tailgating a truck all the way home - which is NOT what I purchased a P90D for...)
Specifically for me I used to be able to drive to work and on the way home, connect to the supercharger, buy a coffee, disconnect from the supercharger and then be on my way while enjoying my cup of coffee.
Now after getting the coffee I have to wait around for the charging level to be enough to reach my destination while finishing it.
Not the end of the world in any way, but still a pretty big impact when you take into account that the time lost is on every single trip.
On longer trips, such as the one I just did driving from Denmark to France and back, it's much more time lost.
Again, the issue at hand here is that Tesla are making these restrictions without communicating them.
I'm certain that the majority of us would be more than happy to accept preventative limits on our vehicles if we knew what was going on.
Some of us might also want to opt out of the charge rate limitation and accept the risk of having increased wear on our battery packs - just like the option we have when charging to 100% repeatedly. The car even prompts you politely to ask if you're sure you want to charge above 90% and what the consequences might be.
The constant recurring theme of this is that we have to make appointments at the Tesla service centers who, just like the owners, are at a loss as to what is going on, we call the regional (European in my case) customer service center - who also know nothing - only to discuss at length on forums etc, do datamining, share experiences and then finally figure out Tesla imposed yet another software restriction they didn't bother telling anyone about.
Tons of us owners are HUGE Tesla fans and spent - for most of us - enormous amounts on money buying these cars because we really LOVE them! It's the best car I have ever had in my life and I've been through high end BMWs and Mercedes-Benz. It makes every minute I spend on the road more enjoyable and it breaks my heart that Tesla doesn't prioritize communicating all the hard work they do to make our cars last longer!
Just like it broke my heart to find out that the promised capacity in the 85 and 90 kWh battery packs just isn't there.
I love my Model S P90D and wouldn't trade it in for anything other than a P100D. But Tesla needs to step up their game and be open and honest about what they are doing and why - especially if they chose to impose post-purchase limitations.
This is an actual issue for a lot of owners, and as Tesla owners most of us we spend quite a lot of time giving test drives to potential new buyers, share our experiences with owning an EV and why Tesla cars in particular are such amazing cars. Doing these things and keeping us in the dark about why is not a strategy that will help Tesla in any way.
Tor
It is not that much better in most of Europe due to the prevalence and overall versatility of Schuko. And they are everywhere, even outdoors often, which is good in a way. It really is a good socket in the sense that it avoids the need for all the variance found in U.S. homes, and is still somewhat usable for EV charging (especially compared to a 5-15).
But the downside is because of this versatility sturdier plugs are thus more rare in homes and Schuko is worse for EV charging than, say, a 14-15. Of course an additional "bonus" are that older electrical wirings and/or fuseboxes may not support the full amps and even the voltage can be a bit iffy, so sometimes you have to limit the amps...
The next best EV charging, IEC 60309 plugs (e.g. 3-phase, or if you are really lucky something sturdier) you of course find in many detached houses and can replace/wire a Tesla Wall Connector to. My house has three existing 3-phase circuits I think, of which one is available to EV charging, but often using a Schuko is more convenient for me. In older buildings and with apartments etc. you may be out of luck, maybe you have one wired to the stove, sometimes not even that.
Tesla is too scammy to actually put real information on their website. They are all about the hype and BS to scam unsuspecting customers. Ask me how I know!
Sorry Tesla, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice.....you know the rest.
Instead of preposterous limits, you should be replacing battery packs on the "1% of customers that are effected."
If it's only 1%, why not just suck it up and replace their packs? Why sour the relationship with all your current and possible future customers?
Last edited:
Thanks for sharing and sorry to hear about your woes. It didn't take long for the 5 minutes to grow into 7 minutes for us, though.
I'm sure we disagree OFTEN on what that means exactly, but in general terms I think otherwise this is once again a sentence we agree with.
I fear what happens next...
Less than 1% is what he said. People who D.C. Charge that much will know. No need to sow FUD. FWIW, I've had 90kW cap on my A pack since I got car. Really ticked me off when I discovered it, but in reality impact is pretty minimal. Worse to get paired at a busy SC. That's worse than 90 cap and can happen to anyone.
Similar threads
