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Impression of the Porsche Taycan

polyphonic54

Member
Aug 29, 2019
317
251
USA
Interesting. Just a tweet from a random guy with a small following, but I could believe that a Biden infrastructure deal would require them to open up for a nice government contract.

I would definitely pay a premium to use them given past experience has shown they are very reliable.
 

Cosmacelf

Well-Known Member
Mar 6, 2013
8,576
20,576
San Diego
news today says elon is opening superchargers to anyone, just need to download adapter and tesla app. i'll buy an Etron and just primarily use tesla superchargers

Wow, that is news. But now that Tesla can charge for Supercharger access, it makes sense. They’ll probably charge third party EVs more than they charge Teslas. It should allow Tesla to open more locations. In fact, this might help Tesla be the de facto standard for charging.
 

mk677

Member
Feb 10, 2021
473
160
jacksonville fl
Wow, that is news. But now that Tesla can charge for Supercharger access, it makes sense. They’ll probably charge third party EVs more than they charge Teslas. It should allow Tesla to open more locations. In fact, this might help Tesla be the de facto standard for charging.
the defacto standard has become CCS, it is the tesla system in the US that is like the betamax was
 

BooMan

Member
Oct 28, 2018
80
49
Detroit

Probably before FSD Level 5, since thats more of a pipe dream than opening up superchargers to generate revenue would be.
Pretty sure when Elon says FSD he is not talking SAE Level 5. The FSD that is “coming soon” is Level 3ish (more between 2 and 3). FSD is a marketing term like “Autopilot”. That said I do not see Tesla allowing 3rd party manufacturers to use SC network. Why would they?
 

mk677

Member
Feb 10, 2021
473
160
jacksonville fl
Pretty sure when Elon says FSD he is not talking SAE Level 5. The FSD that is “coming soon” is Level 3ish (more between 2 and 3). FSD is a marketing term like “Autopilot”. That said I do not see Tesla allowing 3rd party manufacturers to use SC network. Why would they?
I'm pretty sure that in 2016 elon said the real soon he'd be driving coast to coast on FSD.

 
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cookie99

Member
Mar 14, 2016
905
450
California
Uh huh. Which network has the most number of operating charging spaces?
l think this will rapidly change in the following few years in the influx of new vehicles with CCS coming to market as we speak. once the cars are there the chargers will follow as well. Tesla is just one company, theres going to be tens of new companies popping up. ranging from mom&pop charging stations to possibly companies like Shell putting a few EV charger at every single location they own, since the infrastructure is already there
 
when people say "tesla overstated their EPA #'s", and "porsche understated their EPA #'s", what exactly does that even mean?
I thought there was a VERY specific test that is done for BOTH cars. As in IDENTICAL testing. And the EPA sets the #'s.

Or are some people unaware?

Watched the video and it explained really well how the testing is done, but it really doesn't touch on why the Porsche gets better range in the real world when it has worse efficiency. A lot of the tests with the Taycan have been on the hwy I want to see a full city driving test

For what it's worth, I've been lurking on the Taycan forums. The consensus among owners there seems to be a few things:
  1. Porsche used a pre-production BMS with larger top and bottom buffers when doing the EPA testing. Owners report a larger usable capacity than is indicated on the EPA filings.
  2. Porsche used the 2-cycle EPA test, which imposes a 30% derating on the raw test result (the EPA is trying to encourage manufacturers to use the 5-cycle test by penalizing results from the 2-cycle test).
    1. Porsche also apparently took an additional voluntary range reduction for some reason (which is completely legal).
  3. The Taycan has a "range mode" that significantly heats the battery with waste heat from the motor (like older Model Ss). This increases the available energy "Because Electrochemistry"[1] at the expense of battery longevity. Range mode also disables one of the motors to reduce friction.
    1. However: The EPA does not let you test in range mode unless the car defaults to that mode when turning on. Porsche is required to test with "standard" or "sport" mode because the Taycan remembers your mode selection.
    2. In contrast to the EPA, most "real world" testing has focused on driving the car in range mode.
  4. Many owners on the Taycan forum seem to think the Edmunds estimate of the Taycan 4S range is unrealistically high (as I recall, one offered some sort of prize to anyone who could prove it was possible).
Another factor is that the EPA protocol also calls for the car to be driven until it can't maintain speed, not until the dashboard shows zero miles remaining. In contrast, most "real world" testing ends with "X miles remaining" and then extrapolates to zero. Edmunds' followup testing shows that Tesla is more conservative than other makes in this regard. I would like to see someone test whether zero really means zero on a Taycan.

Editorially, I can't help but wonder if the low EPA range was an intentional marketing ploy:

If Porsche knew they couldn't quite beat Tesla[2], the next best strategy might be to sandbag the official number. Then saturate the media with reports of the car easily beating the EPA's "obviously flawed" test (which it does), as well as apples to oranges comparisons to the competition (like brand new 4S vs. used Performance). Finally, let the public's imagination run wild. The post that started this thread strains credulity, and, while the claims about the Taycan's range have become more and more outlandish, we can't prove they are wrong.

[1] It's actually more like "because reaction kinetics", but you get the idea.

[2] When you compare apples-to-apples (Taycan 4S vs. Model S LR or a Taycan Turbo vs. Model S Performance), the Tesla still wins the range contest.
 
Last edited:

cookie99

Member
Mar 14, 2016
905
450
California
Pretty sure when Elon says FSD he is not talking SAE Level 5. The FSD that is “coming soon” is Level 3ish (more between 2 and 3). FSD is a marketing term like “Autopilot”. That said I do not see Tesla allowing 3rd party manufacturers to use SC network. Why would they?

But elon himself tweeted last year that he's open to the idea of other manufacturers taking them up on the idea, so we know with 100% absolute certainty that elon wants it, but no one has taken him up on the offer (a manufacturer), so i think the route now is to bypass the manufacturers and instead create an adapter and allow people to download the app.

Why would they? If they can generate revenue through use the idle chargers.. why WOULDN'T they? think about it, it means tesla can open more superchargers in locations that may not have been worth it before. or even be more willing to create super-centers with 50+ chargers if they can pay for the location. everyone benefits, including tesla owners that now have a new location, and the tesla name gets out there even more. imagine if tesla is able to open chargers in every other block now, all you see are red tesla signs everywhere.
 

polyphonic54

Member
Aug 29, 2019
317
251
USA
[2] When you compare apples-to-apples (Taycan 4S vs. Model S LR or a Taycan Turbo vs. Model S Performance), the Tesla still wins the range contest.
When you compare total trip times (driving + charging), I think the Taycan is the fastest EV on the market. Of course this assumes reliable chargers. From my experience in two test drives, this is also the quietest and most comfortable EV.
Why would they? If they can generate revenue through use the idle chargers.. why WOULDN'T they? think about it, it means tesla can open more superchargers in locations that may not have been worth it before. or even be more willing to create super-centers with 50+ chargers if they can pay for the location. everyone benefits, including tesla owners that now have a new location, and the tesla name gets out there even more. imagine if tesla is able to open chargers in every other block now, all you see are red tesla signs everywhere.
There is no money in DCFC. The individual stalls are astronomically expensive, and they charge next to nothing to use them. Plus they require regular maintenance and land leases (in some areas). If they opened the chargers to the public, I would never consider another Tesla. Even if they charged $50 a stop, I could just use the one or two Superchargers where there are gaps in the EA network.
But if they do figure out how to turn a profit by going public, more power to them. That would be exciting!
 

polyphonic54

Member
Aug 29, 2019
317
251
USA
Another factor is that the EPA protocol also calls for the car to be driven until it can't maintain speed, not until the dashboard shows zero miles remaining. In contrast, most "real world" testing ends with "X miles remaining" and then extrapolates to zero. Edmunds' followup testing shows that Tesla is more conservative than other makes in this regard. I would like to see someone test whether zero really means zero on a Taycan.
This is such an odd twist. It should be assumed that EPA range means range before hitting zero. There is almost no real world situation where having 25 miles past 0% makes sense. As a driver you would have no clue when the car will lose power. If they want to include a generous 25 mile buffer, while other cars are around 7-15 miles, that's fine - but don't call it part of the rated range.
 

mk677

Member
Feb 10, 2021
473
160
jacksonville fl
I'm pretty sure that in 2016 elon said the real soon he'd be driving coast to coast on FSD.

why the disagree rxlawdude? having issues with the facts?
 
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Cosmacelf

Well-Known Member
Mar 6, 2013
8,576
20,576
San Diego
l think this will rapidly change in the following few years in the influx of new vehicles with CCS coming to market as we speak. once the cars are there the chargers will follow as well. Tesla is just one company, theres going to be tens of new companies popping up. ranging from mom&pop charging stations to possibly companies like Shell putting a few EV charger at every single location they own, since the infrastructure is already there

I suspect there will be fewer non Tesla cars on the road in the next four years than most people anticipate. And the reason is battery shortages.
 

mk677

Member
Feb 10, 2021
473
160
jacksonville fl
I suspect there will be fewer non Tesla cars on the road in the next four years than most people anticipate. And the reason is battery shortages.
I think that you are the only one with that view as many manufacturers are building their own versions of EVs. a good many of the buyers of the porsche taycan are former tesla owners.
 

SO16

Active Member
Feb 25, 2016
2,987
9,269
MI
I think that you are the only one with that view as many manufacturers are building their own versions of EVs. a good many of the buyers of the porsche taycan are former tesla owners.
Makes sense after owning several Teslas.

the real question, what will former Taycan owners purchase? Too early to know that answer.
 

Needsdecaf

Active Member
Dec 16, 2018
1,187
1,536
The Woodlands, TX
The problem with Porsche is that you need to use their dealer network which is use too charging stupid high prices for everything. They make BMW dealers seem reasonable. People complain about Tesla but any brand with legacy protected ICE car dealers are more likely to over charge you in my opinion.

Yeah, you might overpay. But at least you can GET service.

And generally, nice loaners too.
 

Needsdecaf

Active Member
Dec 16, 2018
1,187
1,536
The Woodlands, TX
I drove the Taycan 4s extensively (given to me as a loaner) when my Cayenne was being serviced a couple months ago. The car is a Porsche first and an EV second. I don't feel it competes with any Tesla at the moment (if we disregard the EV part). The Model S feels more like a BMW 5 series. The Tacycan is definitely closer to a 911 than a Panamera. It's not as sporty or direct as a 911, given its size and weight, but the suspension, steering and handling are all pretty close. It in NO WAY drives like a luxury sedan - instead it's tight to the bone. Basically if you want a slightly bigger 911 that can kind of fit 4 people and don't mind the extra weight, this is your car. I feel it's closer to the 911 than the Panamera (subtract the engine sound however).

The car is very much high quality; but honestly all German cars above a certain price have similar quality and it's only some luxury features and materials that differ. I would say the interior feels similar to any well equipped Porsche.

Again I treat Model S more like a sport sedan, kind of like a 5 series BMW... it's not built or intended to be as sharp as a sports car.

Finally someone who gets it.
 
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