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  • The latest TMC Podcast (#14) is now available on YouTube and all major podcast networks. We covered FSD Beta's exciting v11 update, Enhanced Autopilot coming to the U.S. and Canada, and more!

Kicked out of the FSD Beta! (Long Post)

Hi everyone, apologies for the long post, but I feel like my M3 investment deserves this airing! I’m not a super-frequent visitor here, but have read many threads over the 2.5 years I’ve had my beloved Dual Motor Model 3. I’m posting today to explain how I was unceremoniously booted from the FSD beta program last week. But before I get into that, a little background.

First and foremost: I love my M3. It has changed my life. I previously had a Subaru Forrester. I’m a consultant and drive about 1-2 hours per day, going to various client sites. For a couple years leading up to the M3 purchase, my body, and particularly my back, would be *hurting* after longer drives in the Forrester. I was honestly asking myself how I was going to keep going with my career, with the aches and pains that driving was causing me. Then I looked into a Model 3. And the rest is history.

I use autopilot 90% of the time I’m in the car. Always paying attention, of course, but able to rest my body. No feet pressing the pedals. No hands clutching the wheel. It’s astounding what a toll that takes on the (50-year-old) body, day in and day out. I can drive 2 hours in the M3 and not feel like I was in the car at all. That's life changing!

Now, first of all, I’m no Elon/Tesla complainer/hater. I love the car so much, tech warts and all. Auto-wipers suck—don’t care. Road noise is significant—don’t care. Unresolved trim issues at purchase—don’t care. The car is just amazing. Best purchase I have ever made, without question. Second: I pay attention when I drive, and know how the Model 3 works. I have logged about 45,000 miles on autopilot. I know how to pay attention, and I know when and how to prove that to the M3.

Now for the sad part. The FSD beta was simply yanked from my car last week, with no email notice, and little to no in-car warning. If something was presented on the screen, it was small, looked like any other message, and, ironically, it must have been showing when I was driving and paying attention to the road!

I got the FSD beta a few weeks ago after a painstaking 30 days of getting a 99 safety score, despite driving in really difficult areas of Boston and the suburbs. All sorts of people hard breaking in front of me, cutting me off, etc. But I was careful, as I always am, and maintained a 99 for a month which was no small feat. I got the FSD beta and was really psyched. Unlike some of you, I didn’t read a ton about it ahead of time. No time for that with 3 younger kids and a demanding job, all seriously affected by the pandemic. So I didn’t fully understand many things about FSD except for the fact that 1) I paid many thousands of dollars for it. 2) I’ve waited two and a half years for it. And 3) it doesn’t work very well so you have to be very careful.

I used FSD the day it downloaded and was struck by how bad it was on city streets. I was really surprised. It was exciting to see it trying to do things it couldn't do before, but I stopped using it. I pretty much only double-tap the gear stalk on major roads, and after that first bad experience, didn’t try it again for a week or so on city streets. The next time I tried it, in hindsight, I noticed extensive nags about paying attention. I was confused because I *was* paying attention. But I guess I did change audio sources, change A/C temps., etc. This is par for the course with standard AP and I never had an issue.

Then last week, I was on a back road. No one around me. I was changing the radio stations during a morning commute and then I had to change my navigation destination. I simply clicked on navigation and switched destinations to one of my preset favorites. AP freaked out and disengaged. And then I saw the message. I was booted from the beta.

Kicked-Out.jpeg


Then ensued tons of reading. I discovered that I was doing it wrong. I should have turned off FSD during my normal commutes and ONLY used it when I wanted to “test” it and pay 100% full attention to the road without even changing the radio station. But I didn’t know. And now after 2.5 years, thousands of dollars, 45,000 miles of safe AP driving, and 30 days of excruciatingly safe Safety-Score driving, I’ve lost what I only had for a few drives, and may never get it back. Man, that SUCKS!

Now a couple of questions for those of you more in the know than me.

1) Does anyone know if I will get FSD beta access back? When?
2) If I email Tesla and officially back out of the beta, will I get my old less-nagging AP back?
3) Can I then re-apply for the beta and go through another safety score test and get FSD back?

So frustrating not knowing the answers to these questions. Of course I called Tesla and the guy on the phone was useless. I do have service scheduled next week and will ask, but I’m pretty sure they won’t know anything either.

For those of you with FSD beta access right now, be careful, and learn from my mistakes!
 

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
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When you say we its a very small minority of people.

If you mean the pre-3/19 buyers, yes they're a minority, and increasingly so over time as Tesla keeps increasing fleet size... (though to be fair- the pre 3/19 people make up a larger % of their cohort than raw sales explain.... since a LOT of sales in the last 2 years are overseas where the take rate is VERY low for FSD.... and the take rate when it was pre 3/19 and mostly US sales was much higher)



When you say deal you mean you to push the agenda


I'm not sure how "citing facts from the sales page" is an agenda.

Unless "caring about facts" is an agenda... which I guess it technically is, despite your trying to impute something sinister to that.



An agenda that conveniently discards things like the video or Elons comments on earnings calls.

It doesn't discard them- it understands them in context compared to the actual promised features described during the purchase.


When you buy an armani suit, the product description tells you you get pants with it... the fact you also saw someone wearing one in a video successfully pick up women doesn't mean you'll get to do that....nor does the CEO of Armani telling you how attractive you'll be in his suits constitute much worth discussing.






Where its so dependent on focusing only a very narrow amount of text that it's really a pet theory.

Again "What were you promised during the sale" is a documentable legal fact, not a "pet theory"


It's not a testable theory.

Of course it is. That's literally what courts are for.



Your obsession with refusing to accept pre and post 3/19 FSD contines different promises is frankly baffling.

It factually contains different promises

In writing.

From Tesla.



I don't measure < 3/2019 FSD as a promise because it never had a due date. Instead we have to make one up based on what we think is reasonable.


That doesn't make it any less of a promise.

Again you appear to want to ignore how actual contracts and law work in favor of whatever you "feel"

Which, I mean, feel however you want... but don't be surprised when nobody else throws out actual facts for your feelings.



I also don't see most of the bullet points under >3/2019 FSD as being complete because something to me isn't complete unless its acceptance rate is high among its buyers.


Uh...what?

Are rolex watches incomplete because relatively few in the population of "people who can wear a watch" buy one?


The straws at which you seem to be grasping keep getting thinner. And frankly sillier.



I have no issue with those who want to claim there are two FSD offerings from an accounting perspective or a lawyer perspective

You appear to, in fact, have a massive problem with those folks.

One could almost say you have an agenda opposing them :)
 
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Why do you keep battling this fight?

We all know there is confusion over what we're going to get with FSD.

Why can't you simply accept that uncertainty, and acknowledge the post May 2019 people have a reasonable justification to expect more than L2 driving? You can't just dismiss everything Elon has tweeted about appreciating values, and robotaxis.

All of us bought FSD with a disclaimer that said it was L2 until validation.

All FSD owners are in the same boat so stop trying to separate us.
When I bought my Model 3, the sales rep specifically told me the design of the screen without an instrument cluster was specifically done so that when the car was fully and totally autonomous, they would just remove the steering wheel and pedals and the front would be symetrical. Also, the in-car camera was supposed to be only so that you could keep an eye on the passengers when the car was driving around as a robotaxi making you money while you were at work in your office or wherever. These were SPECIFIC things that I was told before buying my Model 3, and this was echoed by several reps. Maybe they were just trying to sell me a car, but I have a feeling that even the sales reps believed all of this to be true. The law will not hold the ordinary consumer to a lower standard.
 
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So did OP ever get back into beta?
No. I waited, and waited. I was getting frustrated. I never got the holiday update, which in hindsight was useless anyway. But at the time I thought it was a big deal. I sent numerous emails to Tesla to just get me out of the beta program, and put me back on the regular firmware updates. Eventually they did do just that. Had I waited just a few more days, I would have received an update that would’ve reset my ability to use the beta, and I would’ve been back in business. But I just didn’t hold out long enough.

I do kind of wish I still had access to the beta. But ultimately I found it to be pretty useless, although admittedly sort of fun. I’ve considered throwing my hat in the ring again, but from what I’m reading, nobody is getting accepted anymore. And it really sucked driving in the way I had to to get and keep my 99 score. I guess I’ll just wait until anybody can get it. But honestly, I’m not sure that’s ever going to happen.

At any rate, I still love my model 3. Auto pilot has changed my life for the better. I just can’t believe how good my body feels even after hours in the car. What a miracle. Thank you, you Elon!
 
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S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
6,633
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Snohomish, WA
If you mean the pre-3/19 buyers, yes they're a minority, and increasingly so over time as Tesla keeps increasing fleet size... (though to be fair- the pre 3/19 people make up a larger % of their cohort than raw sales explain.... since a LOT of sales in the last 2 years are overseas where the take rate is VERY low for FSD.... and the take rate when it was pre 3/19 and mostly US sales was much higher)

I'm not sure how "citing facts from the sales page" is an agenda.

Unless "caring about facts" is an agenda... which I guess it technically is, despite your trying to impute something sinister to that.

It doesn't discard them- it understands them in context compared to the actual promised features described during the purchase.

When you buy an armani suit, the product description tells you you get pants with it... the fact you also saw someone wearing one in a video successfully pick up women doesn't mean you'll get to do that....nor does the CEO of Armani telling you how attractive you'll be in his suits constitute much worth discussing.

Again "What were you promised during the sale" is a documentable legal fact, not a "pet theory"

Of course it is. That's literally what courts are for.

Your obsession with refusing to accept pre and post 3/19 FSD contines different promises is frankly baffling.

It factually contains different promises

In writing.

From Tesla.

That doesn't make it any less of a promise.

Again you appear to want to ignore how actual contracts and law work in favor of whatever you "feel"

Which, I mean, feel however you want... but don't be surprised when nobody else throws out actual facts for your feelings.


Uh...what?

Are rolex watches incomplete because relatively few in the population of "people who can wear a watch" buy one?

The straws at which you seem to be grasping keep getting thinner. And frankly sillier.


You appear to, in fact, have a massive problem with those folks.

One could almost say you have an agenda opposing them :)

My use of we was pretty obvious as the context was from the post I was responding to. It wasn't <3/2019 buyers as I'm one of them. Instead its a very small fraction of TMC users who use the 3/2019 change to attack any post 3/2019 buyer who complains about what what they got versus what they were promised.

The order page is facts, but its not factual to say its the ONLY set of facts. I'm not disputing the fact that if this ever comes to a settlement that the 3/2019 dividing line might play a role.

What I am saying is the dividing line is irrelevant for now, and the foreseeable future.

The Armani suit example you brought up is a perfect example of your attempt to distort what I'm saying. The FSD video on the product description page is an example of the intent of a product when a feature of a product is engaged. If the Armani suit had a EKG monitor and the video showed how the feature was intended to work I would expect that functionality to be activated in accordance to whatever target date Armani had for that functionality. If that functionality never came due to regulatory issues I'd be a little irked, but understandable. But, if it never happened because they failed to get it to work I'd be rather irked.

I can't make heads or tails of your rolex example. I was referring to the fact that a product that doesn't function correctly is a broken promise. As an example I bought EAP, but only a few aspects of EAP work correctly. I'm pretty disappointed with it on the whole. This is in stark contrast to Sentry Mode, and Dashcam. I was never promised these features, but I love them despite the fact that they don't work as well as I'd like them to.

The whole idea of there being two FSD's runs counter to how Tesla operates. Tesla operates very much in an iterative fashion where they're quick to change. Whatever old promise they had doesn't stand for very long until the website is scrubbed of the old, and a refresh appears.

In the big scheme of things the old promise doesn't really matter. Do you really care about a tiny $1K or $2K refund? Is that really enough to bash someone who paid $10K for FSD and they were expecting something a lot more?

Quite frankly there are no facts with the direction Tesla is going with FSD.

Why are there no facts? Because its uncharted territory, and when you do that you have to make things up a long the way.

No automotive company has taken L2 as far as Tesla is taking it
No automotive company has developed an autonomous driving system in the manner Tesla is.

How we feel is what matters.

Do we feel like the EAP features met expectations?
Do we feel like Tesla is giving us our moneys worth with FSD?

Wherever this FSD boat is going we're in this together so stop treating people differently depending on when they bought it.
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
6,633
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Snohomish, WA
When I bought my Model 3, the sales rep specifically told me the design of the screen without an instrument cluster was specifically done so that when the car was fully and totally autonomous, they would just remove the steering wheel and pedals and the front would be symetrical. Also, the in-car camera was supposed to be only so that you could keep an eye on the passengers when the car was driving around as a robotaxi making you money while you were at work in your office or wherever. These were SPECIFIC things that I was told before buying my Model 3, and this was echoed by several reps. Maybe they were just trying to sell me a car, but I have a feeling that even the sales reps believed all of this to be true. The law will not hold the ordinary consumer to a lower standard.

This is a good example of the kind of experiences people have.

The Model 3 was, and very much still is a car designed with the idea of automation in mind.

It lacks a blindspot monitoring indicator because that's not needed
It lacks downfacing 360 degree cameras because the car is supposed to park itself (although this omission might come back to bite them).
It lacks rear traffic alert as that's not needed for autonomous driving.
The autowipers go through the AI computer as how it sees is important. People complain about autowipers all the time (including me), but the car is probably going "I can you see fine, I don't know what you're problem is". :)
It lacks any kind of real driver monitoring because that's not needed for autonomous driving.

The sales reps were doing a good job telling customers of the intent with likely very different levels of caution about how realistic the whole automation thing was.

Buyers are told so many different things from so many sources that all they can do is weigh everything depending on their own judgement.
 
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S4WRXTTCS

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May 3, 2015
6,633
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Snohomish, WA
You keep ignoring the fact that they changed the language on the ordering page. That is the legally binding contract.

I'll give you some room to make love to your legally binding pre 3/2019 contract while the pre 3/2019 FSD product specification page plots the murder of the legally binding contract.

The 8 cameras versus 4 camera is out for some sweet revenge.

:p
 
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Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
15,661
29,721
NC
The order page is facts, but its not factual to say its the ONLY set of facts. I'm not disputing the fact that if this ever comes to a settlement that the 3/2019 dividing line might play a role.

Not "a" role- the role.

"The actual meeting of the minds between what was offered for sale and what I purchased" are the governing facts.

Not "The CEO randomly tweeted some aspirational future stuff to the world"


What I am saying is the dividing line is irrelevant for now, and the foreseeable future.

It is irrelevant unless and until Tesla declares they can not get beyond L2 with current vehicles. I think I've been pretty clear on that point.

That doesn't mean it doesn't exist though.


The Armani suit example you brought up is a perfect example of your attempt to distort what I'm saying. The FSD video on the product description page is an example of the intent of a product when a feature of a product is engaged.

But the video isn't showing the current product.

Not even FSDBeta is what is in that video.

What is shown in the video isn't for sale today.

It is what they hope, in the future, to develop for public release.


Did you watch the recent SpaceX starship update? They showed a super cool video of a city on Mars, with starships coming and going. That, too, is an aspirational future thing, not something that is available to anyone today.


I can't make heads or tails of your rolex example. I was referring to the fact that a product that doesn't function correctly is a broken promise. As an example I bought EAP, but only a few aspects of EAP work correctly.

Maybe you should open a service ticket?

Every single item in EAP works as described for me, and tons of other people.

We drove almost 1000 miles last weeked, primarily on NoA, and it was awesome as always, making the drive vastly better than manual.

We used autopark several times on the trip too (and this always worked, just really slowly, since moving to vision it has improved noticeably as well as still working).... and even smart summon (this could be better- longer range mainly would be nice, but it works)

Pretty much the only EAP feature I don't use because I have no need to is dumb summon, though AFAIK that also works fine.


The whole idea of there being two FSD's runs counter to how Tesla operates. Tesla operates very much in an iterative fashion where they're quick to change. Whatever old promise they had doesn't stand for very long until the website is scrubbed of the old, and a refresh appears.

That's...not how contracts work. At all.


In the big scheme of things the old promise doesn't really matter. Do you really care about a tiny $1K or $2K refund?

If a couple thousand bucks is irrelevant to you I'll shoot you my paypal address :)


More seriously though, I'd rather have the actual deliverable than the money. Which is why I spent the money in the first place after all.


Is that really enough to bash someone who paid $10K for FSD and they were expecting something a lot more?

I'm not sure "pointing out, in writing, what they actually bought" is "bashing"

Not sure why you're so militantly defensive over someone citing documented facts.


Do we feel like the EAP features met expectations?

Other than maybe the range of smart summon? Pretty much yeah. Even moreso as autopark has improved.

EAP, AP and NoA in particular, is the primary reason I bought the car

At the time I was doing 75+ miles a day of driving, 90% highway. And it drastically improved my quality of life compared to my previous Lexus for that daily drive.

Do we feel like Tesla is giving us our moneys worth with FSD?

Since for me that's just stop lights and stop signs- not yet no.

I mean that has SOME value. And the computer upgrade will have value as more actual FSD features show up for me. But right now I'm still waiting for most of my personal moneys worth.

For post 3/19 buyers, and notice how this makes a difference once again the value equation is quite different.

They already got basic AP for free (outside that weird couple months they charged a couple k for it before rolling it into the car price.) So for THEM, FSD being "worth it" requires a different set of facts. They paid considerably more than I, but also got more than just stop lights and signs for it. Was that, in hindsight, enough for the $ spent? YMMV.


Wherever this FSD boat is going we're in this together so stop treating people differently depending on when they bought it.

I'm not "treating people" differently.

I'm treating the promised end product differently.

Because it is factually different


If Tesla never gets past L2, then pre 3/19 buyers are owed something, the post 3/19 buyers are not.

If Tesla DOES get to L4 or better, then pre 3/19 buyers will get exactly what they paid for, and post 3/19 buyers will get more than they paid for.


Obviously that second situation is better for everyone, but it doesn't mean "everything is the same" because it factually, in writing, is not.

Your instance on denying this continues to be... very odd.




The 8 cameras versus 4 camera is out for some sweet revenge.

:p

This is actually a great example of what I'm talking about.

The FSD folks got what they paid for (8 active cameras).

The EAP folks got more than they paid for (also 8 cameras).

That's comparable to if they get to L4 and every FSD buyer, pre and post 3/19, gets it.

Nobody files a breach of contract lawsuit over getting more than they paid for.

It's when the opposite happens there's an issue and the contract details become vital.
 
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S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
6,633
8,070
Snohomish, WA
Not "a" role- the role.

"The actual meeting of the minds between what was offered for sale and what I purchased" are the governing facts.

Not "The CEO randomly tweeted some aspirational future stuff to the world"




It is irrelevant unless and until Tesla declares they can not get beyond L2 with current vehicles. I think I've been pretty clear on that point.

That doesn't mean it doesn't exist though.




But the video isn't showing the current product.

Not even FSDBeta is what is in that video.

What is shown in the video isn't for sale today.

It is what they hope, in the future, to develop for public release.


Did you watch the recent SpaceX starship update? They showed a super cool video of a city on Mars, with starships coming and going. That, too, is an aspirational future thing, not something that is available to anyone today.




Maybe you should open a service ticket?

Every single item in EAP works as described for me, and tons of other people.

We drove almost 1000 miles last weeked, primarily on NoA, and it was awesome as always, making the drive vastly better than manual.

We used autopark several times on the trip too (and this always worked, just really slowly, since moving to vision it has improved noticeably as well as still working).... and even smart summon (this could be better- longer range mainly would be nice, but it works)

Pretty much the only EAP feature I don't use because I have no need to is dumb summon, though AFAIK that also works fine.




That's...not how contracts work. At all.




If a couple thousand bucks is irrelevant to you I'll shoot you my paypal address :)


More seriously though, I'd rather have the actual deliverable than the money. Which is why I spent the money in the first place after all.




I'm not sure "pointing out, in writing, what they actually bought" is "bashing"

Not sure why you're so militantly defensive over someone citing documented facts.




Other than maybe the range of smart summon? Pretty much yeah. Even moreso as autopark has improved.

EAP, AP and NoA in particular, is the primary reason I bought the car

At the time I was doing 75+ miles a day of driving, 90% highway. And it drastically improved my quality of life compared to my previous Lexus for that daily drive.



Since for me that's just stop lights and stop signs- not yet no.

I mean that has SOME value. And the computer upgrade will have value as more actual FSD features show up for me. But right now I'm still waiting for most of my personal moneys worth.

For post 3/19 buyers, and notice how this makes a difference once again the value equation is quite different.

They already got basic AP for free (outside that weird couple months they charged a couple k for it before rolling it into the car price.) So for THEM, FSD being "worth it" requires a different set of facts. They paid considerably more than I, but also got more than just stop lights and signs for it. Was that, in hindsight, enough for the $ spent? YMMV.




I'm not "treating people" differently.

I'm treating the promised end product differently.

Because it is factually different


If Tesla never gets past L2, then pre 3/19 buyers are owed something, the post 3/19 buyers are not.

If Tesla DOES get to L4 or better, then pre 3/19 buyers will get exactly what they paid for, and post 3/19 buyers will get more than they paid for.


Obviously that second situation is better for everyone, but it doesn't mean "everything is the same" because it factually, in writing, is not.

Your instance on denying this continues to be... very odd.






This is actually a great example of what I'm talking about.

The FSD folks got what they paid for (8 active cameras).

The EAP folks got more than they paid for (also 8 cameras).

That's comparable to if they get to L4 and every FSD buyer, pre and post 3/19, gets it.

Nobody files a breach of contract lawsuit over getting more than they paid for.

It's when the opposite happens there's an issue and the contract details become vital.

When you sell a product everything you advertise that product as being is taken in consideration. That is what sets the customer expectation, and if you don't deliver on what's advertised the customer is going to be upset.

They might sue you, and they might complain to the FTC. Or they'll just vent on social media.

If other countries put a stop to what you're selling like they have with FSD you might want to reconsider how your advertising the product.

Tesla had a chance 3 years ago to completely come clean about FSD. But, they didn't choose to do that. They did change the order page in an attempt to remove liability, but they never really came clean that all the autonomous stuff was aspirational.

Existing customers like myself felt like they watered down the promise to us. This is primarily why I don't feel like there are two FSD promises. Instead I feel like there is one updated FSD promise that isn't as strong as the previous promise. But, its also not a nothing promise like you feel it is. Elon continued on insisting that its intent was autonomous system in both earning calls, and in his twitter.

For good or for bad Elon acts as a major advertising element for Tesla.

When it comes to existing features I don't judge them just from my own experiences, but I judge them from others as well. If other people had much better experiences with EAP features, and FSD Beta I absolutely would bring my car into service to have them look at it. But, it's not really any different.

The difference seems to be primarily in location and expectations.

Like you EAP was a strong reason why I bought the car. But, unlike you I was trading in a Model 3 with AP1 that already did a pretty reasonable job on the freeway.

NoA was an exciting feature because as advertised it could handle all the lane changes at interchanges to free me from the stress of managing it. But, its never met my own expectation or expectations of similarly minded people. I simply can't trust it to do the appropriate lane changes in moderate to heavy traffic. The lack of usage means that I don't get much out of it.

It never took what I had in the Model S to the next level.

As FSD beta is developed I expect that it will bring EAP features more in line with what my original expectations were for it. But, this itself presents a problem because not every EAP owner got FSD. So there will be a lot of people stuck with things like non-vision based autopark for example.

What you're failing to understand about the 8 cameras instead of 4 is the people buying FSD expected differential. The product page advertised a differential that never happened. Now personally I was unfazed by it as it never really made sense to me to begin with. But, it does show that customers will get upset when they feel cheated.

I only brought that up to show that the entire FSD thing was, and remains to be in flux.

We don't yet know what benefit there will be in being a pre 2019 buyer. Personally I think it was so long ago that I don't expect any difference to materialize (outside of a courtroom) regardless of whether it stays as an L2 system or achieves L4.

I do commend if you do everything in your power to force Tesla to deliver on their L4 promise to you. But, I don't think most buyers will do that.

Most of them will likely treat it like I would where its just another broken promise in a string of broken promises from a company who delivered more on things they didn't promise. So its not like it would be a lose-lose, but a win-lose.

That's also why promises regarding uncertain things don't matter to me that much.

Even L2 driver assistance is an uncertain things. FSD Beta never made it out of the gate before the NHTSA told Tesla owners "No rolling stops for you". The Europeans owners are holding onto auto lane change hoping that the regulator won't run off with it.
 
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Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
15,661
29,721
NC
When you sell a product everything you advertise that product as being is taken in consideration

Tesla, somewhat famously, does not advertise.


. That is what sets the customer expectation, and if you don't deliver on what's advertised the customer is going to be upset.

General speculation on twitter about future developments are not a part of a contract.

You're welcome to be disappointed they don't work out, but they provide no legal leg for you to stand upon.



Existing customers like myself felt like they watered down the promise to us. This is primarily why I don't feel like there are two FSD promises

Except, again, you can't retroactively change a sales contract like that.

So your fundamental reason for refusing to accept the fact there's 2 different FSD packages that were sold is factually inaccurate.

The promise you have about what you purchased is the same now as it was at time of purchase. That's how contracts work.

If they promised something different later, to someone else, that is between the someone else and them- has nothing to do with what you were promised.



. Instead I feel like there is one updated FSD promise that isn't as strong as the previous promise.


But again- that's fundamentally untrue.

You keep proceeding from a false assumption and everything that follows is likewise wrong as a result.




When it comes to existing features I don't judge them just from my own experiences, but I judge them from others as well. If other people had much better experiences with EAP features, and FSD Beta I absolutely would bring my car into service to have them look at it. But, it's not really any different.

I literally just told you I have much better experiences with it. Tons of others all over the forums have too. Yet you just insisted others experiences aren't different than yours.

So again you appear to have already made up your mind and no amount of facts otherwise will change it.

Kinda makes me think we're done here.



Like you EAP was a strong reason why I bought the car. But, unlike you I was trading in a Model 3 with AP1 that already did a pretty reasonable job on the freeway.

The Model 3 was never sold with AP1.

So yeah, I think we're done.
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
6,633
8,070
Snohomish, WA
Tesla, somewhat famously, does not advertise.

Once again you're so narrow in your viewpoint that you can't understand what's being said. The product pages on Tesla website is a form of advertisement in the form of product literature.

Tesla has their own twitter as well, but sadly the twitter handlers they had no longer seems to be writing the snarky stuff they used to.

Elons twitter is also considered a source of material from the company. Lots of Tesla owners follow it to keep up to date on what's happening. Many owners are also investors where anything he says can impact their investing or what they choose to buy.

Obviously we have to take into context what's been said to see if its a promise or speculation. Like the twitter statement from him promising HW3 to FSD buyers would likely stand in a courtroom because it was a pretty cut and dry statement. This was never contested as they did upgrade people like promised.

I don't reject the fact that some (not tons because I simply haven't seen that) have a better experience with NoA than myself. But, that when lots of people have the same issues I have I'm not going to take my car into service especially when a lot of the failures are map related or logic based.

You and I have talked enough that you should have realized I just goofed when I said a Model 3 when I meant a Model S.

My mind doesn't need to be changed because I'm not the one attacking people simply because they got FSD at a different time then me. I know the attack is just meant to shut them up because you don't like their negativity.

As to facts we won't know what the REAL truth is until Tesla or a Courtroom decides the fate of <3/2019 and >3/2019 buyers.

If its some sub <$2K refund of difference I think its pretty silly, and was never worth brining up in the first place.

You say you would value that, but you spend so much time on the internet that you can't possibly value money that much because you'd make a lot more doing something useful.

I've said all I have to say about this topic, and I'll just wait to you attack someone to bring it up again. But, in a much more condensed and less long winded way. Haha.
 
You say you would value that, but you spend so much time on the internet that you can't possibly value money that much because you'd make a lot more doing something useful.

I've said all I have to say about this topic,

Says the guy with over 6200 posts virtually only on this topic. Lol Seems by now you’ve made your point. You don’t like it!
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
6,633
8,070
Snohomish, WA
Says the guy with over 6200 posts virtually only on this topic. Lol Seems by now you’ve made your point. You don’t like it!
Oh, please its only 286 posts on this topic alone. :p

I am curious about how many posts I had when I went from my 2015 Model S which I really enjoyed the entire experience to my 2018 Model 3 where I continued my enjoyment of EV aspects of the car, but I never felt like the EAP/FSD elements really delivered on expectations.

That's not the root of what my recent posts are really about though.

The root of what I was getting at is that when it comes semi-autonomous features or autonomous features its hard to hold a manufacture accountable for whatever claims they originally made.

You either pay for it to do what it does from Day 1 or you pay for the journey for it to do whatever it might do X months for now.

Most of us aren't going to be seeking settlements from the manufacture when the features don't work as advertised.
Most manufactures probably aren't going to concern themselves with a trivial number of upset owners.

It doesn't really matter if its FSD, Blue Cruise, or Rivians Driver+

In a lot of ways the OTA nature of it is a double edge sword. The manufacture thinks the SW upgrades will allow them to magically transform an experience, but it often falls short. It's tough to design things that work from day one let alone updating SW in something years old to perform some new function.

The biggest problem <3/2019 FSD has is it was a very low cost package ($3K) that came with a very lofty promise, and rather unbelievable promise of L4 autonomous driving (it didn't state this, but what they did state was equivalent to this). Lots of people including myself got it with no expectation of meeting that promise, but had other rationality for purchasing it. As a result the idea of a refund for $3K (or less) is rather silly. Especially if we have to give something up to get that refund. Like I can't see giving up autosteer on city streets just to get $2K back ($3K - a $1K HW3 upgrade charge).

I want to make sure its clear that I believe FSD Beta has a lot of potential even if its always an L2 system. The potential it has is providing a really nice driver aid if Tesla gets serious about driver engagement. Meaning that FSD subscribers or people who bought FSD can query Tesla to get them to fix some issue that impacts their daily drive.
 
Just because Tesla does not pay a 3rd party for advertisements does not mean they do not advertise.
I would think that anything on their web site would be considered an advertisement from a legal perspective.
They advertise through the You Tubers, influencers and twitter fanboys……you know all the ones that are tweeting ad nauseum about their “Cyber Rodeo” invites.

Ski
 

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