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L2 chargers in mall
- Thread starter user212_nr
- Start date
srs5694
Active Member
TO YOU.
Different people have different needs. Some people don't have at-home charging (they live in apartments, say) but spend a lot of time at malls and other places with public Level 2 EVSEs. Some people drive PHEVs or EVs with low range and can really benefit from an extra 5-10 miles of range gained while parked at a mall for an hour or two. Some people are just plain cheap and will use a free EVSE if it's available. Any EV owner might be at risk of running out of charge because of unexpected events, and be able to benefit from a public L2 EVSE when a DC fast charger is too far to reach.
One of the drawbacks of EVs is that, thanks to charging time, available infrastructure, and so on, the "fueling" of EVs doesn't fit into a single model, the way it does with ICE vehicles. We charge differently day-to-day than on road trips; and an EV owner who lives in a house with a garage is likely to charge differently than an urban apartment-dweller who parks on the street. This makes it complex to discuss charging with non-EV owners, and too easy for EV owners to assume that their own model applies universally. As EVs become more common, things are likely to improve, but we're still likely to have a variety of charging speeds for the indefinite future, and where any given person charges is likely to vary depending on their living situation and what they're doing (day-to-day driving, road trip, etc.).
ALSET YXES
Member
Agreed, but Level 2 is 80% of the EVCI market and providers need to focus on it if they intend to be profitable.
As I mentioned in my early post, there is a solution coming to the market that will refocus the EVCI market to level 2 where all providers will be able to turn level 2 into a revenue stream via flexibility and scalability.
Once the ink has dried I’ll post a link to the website(s) with detailed articles on the future of level 2.
Charge On!
Well no argument there. Also supercharging however.
I'm not so sure the model is so varied. You have L2 charging at home or work and L3 for trips.
This third category of L2 at retail is a very weak case. If they could do 16kw instead of 6 (which they in theory can do), the math works out a little better, but not a lot better.
What they need is L3, even a weak L3, at retail. Then one can pickup a meaningful charge in the time it takes to shop or eat. If they need a new transformer or whatever it will be worth it (malls have 1.5 MW according to one estimate).
i spent $2 charging, but at least $20 on food and coffee. I won't be going back likely as the charging was not meaningful.
I think they'll figure this out eventually, but right now they are fooled by EVs who park in these spaces. Out of 500 cars you have a few EVs and they like the spot near the entrance. They (mall, chargepoint) have no way to know if these guys have L2 charging at home and that they came not for the charging.
Eno Deb
Active Member
On the Leaf it's optional, and AFAIK only a single PHEV has DC charging. But what I was trying to say is that for those cars, picking up a few extra miles matters more than for a Tesla.
EVs with smaller batteries primarily exist for cost reasons, and are fine as city vehicles.
I get what you're saying, but the thing is that installing and operating DC chargers is much more expensive than L2 chargers.
ALSET YXES
Member
Level 3 is not health for your battery long term and is one of the many reason why level 3 will never enjoy the market sure that level 2 currently has and will retain long-term.
The narrative that level 3 is required to own an EV is just flat out wrong. Level 3 is purely a marketing tool which has facilitated the adoption of EVs and is necessary only for long-distance travel.
The reality is that battery energy density improvements over the next 5-10 years will make level 3 chargers obsolete. Battery energy density is currently advancing along relatively Moore Law model that CPU processing density was tracking on back in the early 1990s and will only continue to increase energy density overtime. If John B. Goodenough (the father of Li-Ion tech) is on point yet again with his solid-state batteries tech with solid-glass electrolytes then is game over for the need for level 3 chargers.
A little more if you'd like: Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Introduces New Technology for Fast-Charging, Noncombustible Batteries - UT News
Straw-man argument. I'm talking about L2 at retail.
If people think L2 at retail is contributing to ownership, I think they are very mistaken. Maybe in California 5 years ago, but not now.
Well at this point they're not going to be able to use those chargers, because the expensive EV + hybrid plugin vehicles who don't need the charge will take up all the spaces next to the door.
They haven't done any wrong, but in the future these L2 retail aren't going to have a place between L2 home charging and L3 supercharging.
Eno Deb
Active Member
Well, all I can tell you is that I used them whenever I could when I was still using our PHEV as my main vehicle. The spots were rarely occupied. It's just a small amenity that is very cheap to deploy and may bring some customers.
DC chargers at retail locations are also becoming more common around here (mostly independent or EVGo, but also Tesla urban chargers), but you probably won't see more than one or two chargers at most (non-Tesla) locations because of the demand fees.
ALSET YXES
Member
haha... Your premises off... The issue is how much power is provided to those level 2 "chargers" in public facing use-cases.
Charge at home or work or use a Level 3 DC Fast charger for road trips. You will not see a densification of level 3 chargers in urban areas.
At some point all public facing level 2 "chargers" will be required by law to have the same power capacity.
L2 has most impact on PHEVS.
Medium DC chargers (25KW) would be best for BEVs to get meaningful charge. DCFC is too fast and if you levy idle fees, it actually disrupts the customer. A friend used Super Charger, went to dinner with family. He had to leave the restaurant to move the car before they ordered because the charge was already done.
To control demand charge, the site just has to implement power sharing.
Medium DC chargers (25KW) would be best for BEVs to get meaningful charge. DCFC is too fast and if you levy idle fees, it actually disrupts the customer. A friend used Super Charger, went to dinner with family. He had to leave the restaurant to move the car before they ordered because the charge was already done.
To control demand charge, the site just has to implement power sharing.
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Great news for NY... if you can afford to own an EV, let alone a car in NY...
NY Governor Cuomo announces “Make-Ready” program for EV charging stations; >20K EV rebates approved
NY Governor Cuomo announces “Make-Ready” program for EV charging stations; >20K EV rebates approved
srs5694
Active Member
At the moment, and for the foreseeable future, some potential EV owners can't charge at home. Some such users can't charge at work, either -- they might work from home, for instance. For such potential owners, the trick is to find charging options that fit their needs. With Level 2 charging at home and at work out of the picture, that leaves public charging. I see these options as fitting into three broad categories:
- Current DC fast charging (25-150kW) -- This speed can work well at locations where the driver expects to spend ~1/2 hour to an hour -- say at restaurants, grocery stores, etc.
- Level 2 fast charging -- This is optimal where the owner is likely to park for over an hour. Such locations include malls, movie theaters, libraries, parks, etc. Charging at Level 2 speeds has several advantages over current DC fast charging:
- It's usually cheaper (currently, and likely in the future).
- It's less damaging to batteries.
- If you know that you'll be parked at some location for (say) two hours, and if Level 2 speeds are sufficient for that time frame to fully charge the battery, then plugging in to a DC fast charger for that long, thus hogging it for an hour or more beyond the time you'd actually be using it, would be rude.
- Significantly faster DC fast charging (~400+ kW) -- At speeds significantly higher than what we have now, DC fast charging could be as fast as filling an ICE vehicle's tank at a gas station. This would then be an easy "sell" to owners familiar with that process. Right now, nothing quite matches those speeds, though, and the required speeds go up with the car's size. Also, such high speeds may wreak havoc with battery longevity. We may get to this point eventually, but we're far from there now, so we (as a society) should focus on the two preceding options.
Of course, some of these factors might change in the future. Regulations requiring Level 2 EVSEs at all rental properties, on street parking near apartments, and at places of employment would make other public charging options less critical. There would likely be people who would "slip through the cracks" of such regulations, though; and there would be implementation questions, demands for exceptions to the rules from landlords and employers, etc. The fact is that we don't know how this will play out as EVs become more common, and in the absence of such knowledge, we as a society need to watch what's happening and adapt. At the moment, public Level 2 charging at malls, libraries, etc., is valuable to some EV owners, IMHO.
Maybe for day-to-day driving, but not for road trips. I've made three road trips in my Model 3 since buying it, and I would not have attempted them (or bought the Model 3) without DC fast charging.
I'm not sure how this would interact with the issue of apartment-dwellers who can't charge at home, either. A hypothetical future 500kWh battery would take a long time to charge at Level 2 speeds, so if you take DC fast chargers out of the equation, such an owner would need to have a Level 2 station where they can park for an extended period, if the battery gets low.
I'm skeptical that this will be regulated. One reason is that there's no technical reason to implement such a requirement -- the current J1772 protocol can handle a wide variety of charge rates with no problem, so having a mixture of hardware speeds doesn't prevent somebody from charging at an EVSE with significantly more or less capacity than the car. I don't see a significant harm to citizens to having a variety of Level 2 amperages/wattages in public stations. Sure, it's a bummer if you plug in an LR Model 3 to a station that can only deliver, say, 24A; but is that really a major harm? If you live in the area and rely on public chargers, you'll learn which ones are faster quickly enough, and the market will take care of the rest. This contrasts with, say, the potential for sky-high DC fast charging rates because of utility demand charges, which is a problem that may eventually require regulation to control. (Maybe the marketplace will take care of that without regulation, though; it's too soon to tell, IMHO.)
Watts_Up
Well-Known Member
One aspect that people don't talk is that EV charging is not taxed like gas.
So at one point, states will need to find money to fix the roads...
Some states started already to have an annual tax for EVs, other might have a tax based on mileage usage.
It's a little why, IMO, some states try to promote Hydrogen, so people who like the convenience to spend only few minutes at a station,
would choose hydrogen, and states will have again a simple way to tax users at the pump.
So at one point, states will need to find money to fix the roads...
Some states started already to have an annual tax for EVs, other might have a tax based on mileage usage.
It's a little why, IMO, some states try to promote Hydrogen, so people who like the convenience to spend only few minutes at a station,
would choose hydrogen, and states will have again a simple way to tax users at the pump.
Gas taxes are effective because the trucks who pass through a state will inevitably need to fill up, so the tax falls on out-of-state residents heavily in addition to residents.
Any kind of EV-tax will inevitably fall on residents only, so it is not much more than something to discourage EV adoption in general. Probably done by auto-dealers lobby. Most states are subsidizing EVs in all ways, so why would they charge anything?
Besides, there will be gas vehicles for a long time, and the gas tax can be increased and increased the more EV adoption takes place.
In the end, if gas cars go the way of the steam engine, then you have tolls.
States are not under threat from EVs due to lost revenues. That is bogus. They are free to add electronic tolls if/when they really are under threat.
"As cars guzzle less gas, drivers end up paying less in gas taxes." This makes no sense. All they need to do is increase the tax.
I see more toll roads appearing in the Bay Area. It will help pay for road maintenance and also discourage people from driving (reduce congestion).
ralph142
Member
Why not do the same as ice fuel, tax per kWh at point of sale for evs? Misses home charging, certainly, but catches everything else, including interstate travel.
Demand charges make sense because the local infrastructure eventually has to be upgraded if a home or business uses too much power. For example, if a home on the edge of town used 1.5 MW, then they would need to upgrade the entire line between the substation and that house. They also will need eventually to make additional power plants, if they are pushed over the edge. That can't be paid for by all the neighbors who use normal power, so in that sense it is very inappropriate to regulate them. Regulation would just be taxing, since utilities have fixed profits, though you could enforce some limitations.
Demand charges don't make sense when there is excess capacity in the system and the charge is there just because it is premium elsewhere. I can find exact proof of this, but it is very likely that Tesla coordinates their V2 and V3 supercharges with the local electric utility so that their demand charges are reduced. For example, by locating them near high voltage lines and substations they would reduce the infrastructure burden. I'd bet those lines have significant extra capacity. The power company wants to sell power after all.
That's nobody knows what their demand charges actually are.
Similar with a mall which uses 1.5 MW, it probably is in a location with good access to power. That's maybe why so many superchargers are at malls. Obviously you can't blame every mall that doesn't have a supercharger yet, but its probably in their best interest.
Ultimately it just goes as another reminder how far Tesla is in front of the competition.
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