Landlord won't let me charge, says I need a permit for the 125v portable charger?

[coleAK]

I had to get a permit to install my wall connector. And I’m sure there are a lot of Muni’s that require a permit any time the breaker panel is entered.

It dosnt sound like CA went so far to require a permit to plug an approved plug into a 110 outlet but growing up close (in NV by a few miles) it wouldn’t surprise me.

I would find different housing sounds like your land lord is a bit nutty.

 

[miimura]

You do not need a permit to use an outlet however some municipalities can require a permit to use any EV charging requiring an inspection yet no one would follow this. On the other hand I think it is a good idea to have outlets inspected, the failure rate is high on older homes. The US would not have all these issues and many outlets if our system was not so antiquated. in the EU 240V allows fewer plug types, lower copper costs, thiner wires and more kw. A common 10A outlet there is 2400 watts. The plugs are also better designed and made than the junk we have here. 120v outlets in the US should have to meet better min requirements as some are garbage.

Europe has just as many crap Schuko outlets as America has crap 5-15 outlets. Why else would plug-in EVSE have a default charging current of 10A on a 16A outlet?
IMHO, the main thing to look for if you're going to plug into an existing household outlet in America is the termination of the wire at the outlet. Pull the outlet out of the wall and make sure the wire is screwed down. If the wire is going straight into a hole in the back without an obvious screw securing it, either move the wire to the screw that is provided on the outlet or change the whole outlet for one that does have screw termination.

 

[eprosenx]

IMHO, the main thing to look for if you're going to plug into an existing household outlet in America is the termination of the wire at the outlet. Pull the outlet out of the wall and make sure the wire is screwed down. If the wire is going straight into a hole in the back without an obvious screw securing it, either move the wire to the screw that is provided on the outlet or change the whole outlet for one that does have screw termination.

To add more color here: If you are going to take an old outlet out and inspect its terminations (and move them to screw terminals) I would just replace it at the same time. They are only a few bucks - no reason to use an old one. The tension on the plugs can degrade over time, etc...

Also: You really want to check every receptacle in the chain up until that outlet (from the breaker on). If your receptacles are wired with those backstab connections I would want to switch them all to screw terminals.

To the OP: I suggest you do the legwork to figure out what circuit that every receptacle in the apartment is on. This can be accomplished by turning one off at a time and checking what is working / not working. Or, if you don't want to go that far, what you really need is to identify what is on the circuit in question (though to do this you need to test every single receptacle in the house to make sure you don't miss anything).

Perhaps one option would be to pay an electrician to identify all the receptacles on that circuit and replace them all with new receptacles (using the screw terminals, not the backstab ones). For good measure, have the electrician replace the breaker in the panel at the same time. We are probably talking like $25 of material here and it provides peace of mind and maybe gets the landlord to a comfortable place?

 

[mswlogo]

To add more color here: If you are going to take an old outlet out and inspect its terminations (and move them to screw terminals) I would just replace it at the same time. They are only a few bucks - no reason to use an old one. The tension on the plugs can degrade over time, etc...

Also: You really want to check every receptacle in the chain up until that outlet (from the breaker on). If your receptacles are wired with those backstab connections I would want to switch them all to screw terminals.

To the OP: I suggest you do the legwork to figure out what circuit that every receptacle in the apartment is on. This can be accomplished by turning one off at a time and checking what is working / not working. Or, if you don't want to go that far, what you really need is to identify what is on the circuit in question (though to do this you need to test every single receptacle in the house to make sure you don't miss anything).

Perhaps one option would be to pay an electrician to identify all the receptacles on that circuit and replace them all with new receptacles (using the screw terminals, not the backstab ones). For good measure, have the electrician replace the breaker in the panel at the same time. We are probably talking like $25 of material here and it provides peace of mind and maybe gets the landlord to a comfortable place?

Most Electricians in our area won’t even to the home for less than $100.

 

[davewill]

Most Electricians in our area won’t even to the home for less than $100.

Yeah, I figured it would be at least that...which makes having him go ahead and replace the old outlet more attractive.

 

[carnut4ever]

Thanks everyone, yes I also feel the same feelings as many of you, but the reality is that housing here is ridiculous and I need to stay on good terms.

The UL Listed angle is interesting.

For future tenants with old-school landlords, I did find this for Washington State:
If your household appliance is cord-and-plug (101 KB PDF) connected, then

• no, an electrical permit is not required to install, repair or replace the appliance.

For Palo Alto (ugh):
[Exempt from permits]: CBC ELECTRICAL: Repairs and maintenance: Minor repair work, including the replacement of lamps or the connection of approved portable electrical equipment to approved permanently installed receptacles.

Is there a list of "approved portable electrical equipment" lol? Will keep searching and will post for others.

Tell her you checked with the city and you need a permit to install a 240V charging outlet but not an existing 120V outlet.

 

[Kirill Makarov]

Hello
My name is Kirill and I'm the electrical contractor (Evchargerexpert).
We work with EV charger installations every day. In your situation you shouldn't have the permit for the outlet 110V but the problem number one is this outlet is without ground protection (green wire). It is always neytral and phase. It will be trip of the breaker.
The portable Tesla charger can work only with ground.
For 240V (NEMA 14-50,6-50,6-20 and etc.) you need the permit. Palo Alto has the cost(fee) for that 280$ because it is level-2.
This installation is always with the permit.

 

[BE_M3]

So sorry you have to charge on 110 Volts Only 2-3 miles per hour.

 

[Jimbo435]

Hi everyone,

Happy owner of a M3D here.

Our landlord claims that she will need to get a permit for us to use our Tesla official portable charger with the standard 125v NEMA 5-15-P plug (the three pronger common to computers, blenders, etc.)

As a result, she isn't letting us plug in the Tesla. Public chargers work, but I feel bad clogging up the public infrastructure every week and it's a hike.

Is there any documentation (NEC, building code, anything "official") that specifically states that a permit is *not* required for a car (or any big load) charging on a 5-15P plugged into a NEMA 5-15R?

I need something to show her to assuage her fears/preconceptions.

I've done many searches including exact matches and I can't find any specific references for this.

This is in Palo Alto, CA. There aren't a lot of reasonable housing options here and she is otherwise cool.

Thanks!

I would be concerned (and your landlord probably is) about 2 things:
1) Can the circuit handle the load
2) Will the landlord be liable if something happens.

I would hire an home inspector to inspect the outlet to ensure it was installed to code, and if there are other outlets/equipment on the same circuit. Get their finding in writing.

Then, write up a letter stating "To Whom It May Concern: The Tesla mobile connector presented to me by ~your name here~ is UL Listed and ok to use on any properly installed outlet matching the adapter used. No permit is required to plug in this device.". Take it to your local planning department, tell them your story, and ask them if a permit is needed to plug in your charger. When they say no, ask them to sign your letter. Get a card, attach to letter.
Give both letters to your landlord.

When we got our first EV over 3 years ago, we used a 115V 15A circuit to charge. Granted it was on a long undersized extension cord, but twice it blew the breaker. (you don't want this, even if it is harmless because your landlord may think you've broken something) Turns out the outlet I was using was on the same circuit as an outlet in our kitchen. Turns out a deep fryer and an EV use more than 15A...

 

[Rocky_H]

In your situation you shouldn't have the permit for the outlet 110V but the problem number one is this outlet is without ground protection (green wire). It is always neytral and phase. It will be trip of the breaker.

WTF? I'm wondering--did you have multiple browser windows open and accidentally post in the wrong thread? Since this is just general discussion about a 5-15 outlet, and there have been no pictures of it posted or specific mentions of the wiring behind it yet, how in the world can you possibly claim to know that it is missing the ground? And missing ground would not cause it to trip the breaker anyway. It would just have the Tesla charge cable blinking an error and not doing anything.

My name is Kirill and I'm the electrical contractor (Evchargerexpert).
We work with EV charger installations every day.

Let's just say I don't believe you because of the mistakes I just pointed out. Really, did you mean to post to some other thread?

 

[Jimbo435]

Hello
My name is Kirill and I'm the electrical contractor (Evchargerexpert).
We work with EV charger installations every day. In your situation you shouldn't have the permit for the outlet 110V but the problem number one is this outlet is without ground protection (green wire). It is always neytral and phase. It will be trip of the breaker.
The portable Tesla charger can work only with ground.
For 240V (NEMA 14-50,6-50,6-20 and etc.) you need the permit. Palo Alto has the cost(fee) for that 280$ because it is level-2.
This installation is always with the permit.

Did I miss the post where the OP said there was no green wire?

 

[Rocky_H]

Did I miss the post where the OP said there was no green wire?

No. And I just went back through all of the pages in this thread checking the OP's posts. There has not been any mention of the wiring of any outlets. @Kirill Makarov made that up out of nothing, which is why I think it may have been posted in this thread by accident, where it was referring to some other discussion where someone has posted pictures of their wiring and is asking about it.

 

[dknieriemen]

Hi everyone,

Happy owner of a M3D here.

Our landlord claims that she will need to get a permit for us to use our Tesla official portable charger with the standard 125v NEMA 5-15-P plug (the three pronger common to computers, blenders, etc.)

As a result, she isn't letting us plug in the Tesla. Public chargers work, but I feel bad clogging up the public infrastructure every week and it's a hike.

Is there any documentation (NEC, building code, anything "official") that specifically states that a permit is *not* required for a car (or any big load) charging on a 5-15P plugged into a NEMA 5-15R?

I need something to show her to assuage her fears/preconceptions.

I've done many searches including exact matches and I can't find any specific references for this.

This is in Palo Alto, CA. There aren't a lot of reasonable housing options here and she is otherwise cool.

Thanks!

Sometimes, in life, it is best to just "do something", rather than putting the responsibility on someone else to "approve" it, especially when your are sure it will not harm others. This is especially true when you are willing to set a "precedent", which will help others and maybe even set a new good standard. From what you describe here seems, to me, to be of little "risk" to you or others. However, now that you have already made this an issue with "her" you may have already lost your chance.

 

[mservice]

Hi everyone,

Happy owner of a M3D here.

Our landlord claims that she will need to get a permit for us to use our Tesla official portable charger with the standard 125v NEMA 5-15-P plug (the three pronger common to computers, blenders, etc.)

As a result, she isn't letting us plug in the Tesla. Public chargers work, but I feel bad clogging up the public infrastructure every week and it's a hike.

Is there any documentation (NEC, building code, anything "official") that specifically states that a permit is *not* required for a car (or any big load) charging on a 5-15P plugged into a NEMA 5-15R?

I need something to show her to assuage her fears/preconceptions.

I've done many searches including exact matches and I can't find any specific references for this.

This is in Palo Alto, CA. There aren't a lot of reasonable housing options here and she is otherwise cool.

Thanks!

Reading this thread a couple of things..
I own my townhome, but with HOAs it’s almost like having a landlord.
I went through some negotiations with my HOA to have a charging station installed in my assigned parking space. I live in Northern Virginia, so there could be some minor differences here.
- One, keep a good relationship with your landlord, the last thing you want to do is make them mad, you could find yourself evicted, then you have a major charging problem.
- Two, you have access to a lot more information about charging then the majority of landlords. Use that information as a learning tool rather than a hammer.
- Three, consider suggesting that you will pay to upgrade/install a NEMA 14-50, (you would likely do that if you owned your home anyway) this would take care of your permit issue as you would need one. Considering that EVs are coming you can tell your landlord that it would help increase the property value.
Just some things to consider.

 

[MaryAnning3]

I agree that in general on modern wiring with a quality installation it *should* be safe, but I would never claim there is no danger whatsoever.

Just to contextualize the degree of risk here, I am thinking that drawing 12 amps at 110 V is about 1300 Watts. (Is that correct or should one consider RMS due to it being AC?) So that is about the same as a portable electric heater on high, or a hair dryer on a high setting. This is not nothing, but is comparable to things people commonly use and really no different, in terms of power draw, despite the complex technology internal and inherent to the car itself

 

[electracity]

Just to contextualize the degree of risk here, I am thinking that drawing 12 amps at 110 V is about 1300 Watts. (Is that correct or should one consider RMS due to it being AC?) So that is about the same as a portable electric heater on high, or a hair dryer on a high setting. This is not nothing, but is comparable to things people commonly use and really no different, in terms of power draw, despite the complex technology internal and inherent to the car itself

Yes. Millions of portable space heaters are run continuously during very cold weather. Charging a car is somewhat safer for building wiring compared to a portable space heater due to sophisticated fault detection in the vehicle.

 

[JRWilliams308]

Hi everyone,

Happy owner of a M3D here.

Our landlord claims that she will need to get a permit for us to use our Tesla official portable charger with the standard 125v NEMA 5-15-P plug (the three pronger common to computers, blenders, etc.)

As a result, she isn't letting us plug in the Tesla. Public chargers work, but I feel bad clogging up the public infrastructure every week and it's a hike.

Is there any documentation (NEC, building code, anything "official") that specifically states that a permit is *not* required for a car (or any big load) charging on a 5-15P plugged into a NEMA 5-15R?

I need something to show her to assuage her fears/preconceptions.

I've done many searches including exact matches and I can't find any specific references for this.

This is in Palo Alto, CA. There aren't a lot of reasonable housing options here and she is otherwise cool.

Thanks!

Despite what EVERYONE here is telling you, I have to say, you're landlord *may* be right. I recently had Solar City install solar panels on my house. On final inspection of the house my city's building inspector had to come into my house to sign off that job (never ever let a city inspector into your house, but I had no choice as I had to for this job) and lo and behold I had just received my wall adapter the day before and had it sitting on the kitchen floor waiting for my electrican to come hook it up. We walked by it ad casually, I mentioned to the Tesla/SolarCity guy who was with us that I just got it, and was anxious to get it installed. The inspector chimed in with "do you have a permit for that" BS, I told him I didn't think I needed a permit for that. He insisted. So there may some validity to what she's saying. You may be able to install it. But down the line she might have trouble when she goes to sell the house.
The electrician told me I didn't need a permit. He's done this many times...

So.. what'd I do? It's my house. I just bought it 5 years ago and I plan to live there for 30 years. Screw it, I had it installed. But I had that luxury to make the call, you don't. If I were you, I'd talk to your building department and get their official stance. It's not about plugging a microwave, toaster, or a Tesla into it. It's about running a new line to do it.

Good luck!

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Despite what EVERYONE here is telling you, I have to say, you're landlord *may* be right. I recently had Solar City install solar panels on my house. On final inspection of the house my city's building inspector had to come into my house to sign off that job (never ever let a city inspector into your house, but I had no choice as I had to for this job) and lo and behold I had just received my wall adapter the day before and had it sitting on the kitchen floor waiting for my electrican to come hook it up. We walked by it ad casually, I mentioned to the Tesla/SolarCity guy who was with us that I just got it, and was anxious to get it installed. The inspector chimed in with "do you have a permit for that" BS, I told him I didn't think I needed a permit for that. He insisted. So there may some validity to what she's saying. You may be able to install it. But down the line she might have trouble when she goes to sell the house.
The electrician told me I didn't need a permit. He's done this many times...

So.. what'd I do? It's my house. I just bought it 5 years ago and I plan to live there for 30 years. Screw it, I had it installed. But I had that luxury to make the call, you don't. If I were you, I'd talk to your building department and get their official stance. It's not about plugging a microwave, toaster, or a Tesla into it. It's about running a new line to do it.

Good luck!

In this case, the OP is referring to the plug-in Mobile Connector, not the hard-wired Wall Connector. Many municipalities require a permit for the installation of hard-wired Wall Connectors. No one has been able to cite municipalities that would require a permit for a plug-in Mobile Connector.

 

[JRWilliams308]

In this case, the OP is referring to the plug-in Mobile Connector, not the hard-wired Wall Connector. Many municipalities require a permit for the installation of hard-wired Wall Connectors. No one has been able to cite municipalities that would require a permit for a plug-in Mobile Connector.

It'd make a difference in permit requirements?

 

[MorrisonHiker]

It'd make a difference in permit requirements?

Yes. One is hard-wired. The other you just plug in. As others have mentioned, you don't need a permit for a hair dryer, etc. so why would you need a permit for a plug-in EVSE? No one has shown any proof that a permit is required for a plug-in EVSE. A lot of us have been around for years and this is the first we've heard of such a "requirement".

Also, the MC is mobile. You take it anywhere and should be able to plug it in. There's no way people could get permits for every conceivable outlet they would need to plug it into.