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Let's discuss Dual Motor range
- Thread starter ModelNforNerd
- Start date
@Troy, Can you please share where are you finding this spreadsheet?
I found this site: (Data on Cars used for Testing Fuel Economy | US EPA) but the spreadsheet for 2018 on there hasn't been updated since June and doesn't include any data for the Model 3 AWD variants.
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JeffK
Well-Known Member
I hope we actually see a performance version get 310 miles without someone babying it.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
But the EPA doc says 188 kw for the rear AWD motor.
Which is impossible at 350v and 500 amps (as the rumor claims)... 350v at 500 amps only gets you 175 kw.
On the other hand....
Tesla Model 3 gets hacked, reveals more details and great potential for dual motor/ performance versions
This says 400w mav voltage for battery and 1200A max discharge for the battery, max discharge 370 kw.
400v at 500 amps is 200 kw
The EPA doc says 211 rear/147 front on the P, 211 rear on the RWD, and 188 rear/147 front on the AWD for kw (AC 3 phase)
Based on 400v then 358kw on P only needs 895 amps total- way short of the 1200 it's capable of...527.5 total amps to make 211kw on RWD, and 837.5 amps to make 335kw on AWD
That front motor giving you 147kw on both AWD and P-AWD can manage that with 367.5 amps at 400v...
This leaves quite a bit of headroom in all 3 models for a future uncorking if there is one.
Bumping the rear motor to 800 amps gets you 320kw just on the rear motor (and would bump HP up to 429 on the RWD) for example
Course this assumes no losses anywhere...and the DC power is inverting into a 3 phase AC motor....
Troy can you help me with these numbers? I ordered a model 3 AWD and I will average 120km/h on the highway for 70km of my commute. Does this chart mean I'd get 424 km of range which equals 424/70km = ~6 days without a charge? I don't have any EV charging in my condo unfortunately and I'm trying to determine how long I can go without a charge. Given that I can charge from 10%-90% at say a supercharger or level 2 chargers does that mean I can use 339km/70km = ~4.8 days without a charge? Sorry just trying to wrap my head around this...
I think you're forgetting that the battery voltage changes depending on pack charge. It likely ranges from ~400V at full charge to just under ~300V when under high load and/or near 0% (just my speculation, but it's around those numbers).
The 370kW (5C) max discharge is for high states of charge, whereas the 1200A is for low states of charge, the car limits it at both (whichever it hits first). For example, 370kw discharge at 400 volts (full charge) is only 925A. But to reach 370kW at 300V you need ~1,222A, so it appears the car can maintain full 370kW output until the pack reaches ~308 volts, below which you'll start seeing power losses as it limits it to 1200A.
Lastly, an older version of the Model 3 manual used to list the max voltage and amperage of the rear motor, which was 370V and 800A. This means it has a theoretical max output of 296kW (assuming 100% efficiency). Sasha from Mountain Pass Performance saw a peak of 335whp (250kW) at 80% SoC, which if the 296kW is to believed, shows a ~15% loss at the wheels, which seems plausible.
The only way to get more power in the P-AWD would be for Tesla to raise the 370kW max discharge in the BMS. I think that's what Elon was referring to when he said it *might* be possible. The engineers are likely testing if increased discharge rates beyond 5C result in accelerated battery degradation in the 2170's. At least that's my speculation.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Then it'd be impossible for the rear motor in the AWD to be limited to 500 amps and still be able to "always" produce 188 kw....500 amps only gets you 175 and 150 kw respectively at 350 and 300 volts.
Ok...AWD is 335 kw- which again you can't do with only 1000 amps at 300v... (you'd need at least 335 with perfect efficiency) so still doesn't sound like the 1000 amp AWD cap works with this math.
If the battery can do 370kw just about all the time that gives you a tiny bit of headroom from the 358 it's doing now (only 16 hp or so) without bumping the discharge... and quite a lot of it on the RWD and AWD models... but given the need to keep the models seperated yeah they'd probably need to bump the P up a bit more than that to do any significant uncork on the others.
What's the 15% loss from- it's not like there's a torque converter being driven or something so that seems pretty high for an electric motor car....
That dyno result is also a lot higher than the EPA rating for the RWD motor (211 kw)
Huh? Where did I say the rear motor was limited to 500 amps or "always" produced 188kW? What are you talking about and why so defensive? My post was supplementing yours with my own opinions/calculations, not countering it.
Again, where are you getting 1000 amps...? 335kW is the peak output, not what the pack does at near 0% charge.
Sasha himself said the sandbagged numbers, aka the EPA rating (211kW) and Tesla's own rating (192kW) for the rear motor is likely an average over the entire RPM range, as that's more fair since the motor only makes peak power at a certain speed (around 5-6k RPM if I recall) and gradually drops after that. If you average the power curve out, you're getting more like ~200kW range for the entire power band. This is what Tesla used for the "sandbagged" official power numbers for the LR Model 3, which virtually everyone concurs that the LR Model 3 makes more power than that.
ℬête Noire
Active Member
I know it's a specific component but I understood it to be installed as a part of the battery pack assembly. Here's where it is located, attached over the battery where it sits underneath the back seat:
Do we have any photos of packs coming from Sparks, is this "penthouse" attached there or later in Fremont?
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
That has been the repeated claim by a bunch of folks (not saying by you)- in a dozen or more threads- going back weeks- regarding the AWD rear motor.
That Tesla was limiting it to 500 amps rather than 800.
Folks keep asking for a source and nobody seems to have one- so when the EPA numbers came out I suggested it finally debunked that idea.
That's what the EPA says.
See above. I can link you to some of the (many) threads with the 1000 amp max on AWD claim if you really care
It never made much sense, and still doesn't seem to.
Obviously they're gimping the rear motor on the AWD versus the P since they're physically the same motor, but not by 300 amps based on the relatively small kw output difference... and they're just as obviously doing more than just that in software to make it a full second slower than the P.
it does seem a little odd they're not software-gimping both motors by a roughly equal amount though rather than just the rear.
Fair enough- though if those EPA #s are averages it'll be really interesting to see what dynos show on the AWD vs the P-AWD, given how relatively close the EPA ones are yet the actual performance is (allegedly) so different.
Camera-Cruiser
Fully Charged
The totally weird part is that I would have ordered the RWD LR back in Dec17 when I got my invite if Tesla had been more transparent about some of this earlier. I think they would have had a large number of people pull the trigger sooner on the RWD.
Now some of this is, if not all, is my fault. I kept figuring, actually hoping, it would be like the AWD Model S, that it would get better range because of the efficiency of each motor. Elon, even posted that the front motor was more efficient in the Model 3, but did not equate that to range.
In my head I kept thinking I might get a 330 to 350 mile car. The extra acceleration was just gravy, which I like.
Now I am torn, since for a large part, to me range trumps everything. But since pulling the trigger on the AWD, I keep thinking how the AWD's acceleration might be somewhat close to a P85, which is really nice.
To cancel AWD for an extra 20 miles???. How much do I want to see 310 miles when I charge to 100%???
Does anyone actually see that?
Now some of this is, if not all, is my fault. I kept figuring, actually hoping, it would be like the AWD Model S, that it would get better range because of the efficiency of each motor. Elon, even posted that the front motor was more efficient in the Model 3, but did not equate that to range.
In my head I kept thinking I might get a 330 to 350 mile car. The extra acceleration was just gravy, which I like.
Now I am torn, since for a large part, to me range trumps everything. But since pulling the trigger on the AWD, I keep thinking how the AWD's acceleration might be somewhat close to a P85, which is really nice.
To cancel AWD for an extra 20 miles???. How much do I want to see 310 miles when I charge to 100%???
Does anyone actually see that?
ℬête Noire
Active Member
No, that's not what that says. It isn't "always" producing that in the same way that, say, a 450HP ICE engine is "always" producing 450HP.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Looks like 188 kw to me.
which if it's an average on a battery that ranges from 300-400v (which is the premise to which I was replying) can't be done with only 500 amps.
ℬête Noire
Active Member
Your posts are.....disorientating. This fixation you seem to have in fighting shadows has me on the edge of just flipping the Ignore switch. Which is sad.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Your posts are.....disorientating. This fixation you seem to have in fighting shadows has me on the edge of just flipping the Ignore switch. Which is sad.
If you disagree with my math- please show me the correct math.
I'm more than happy to be educated if my facts are in error, but I'm unsure where I've been unclear in what I've said.
ℬête Noire
Active Member
Just drop your fixation on the 500A. Nobody here can follow that stuff because there's a whole lot of "context" that's gibberish and is somewhere else. The horse has passed into the spirit world and the "math" of you flailing at air doesn't make any sense.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Perhaps this will clear it up for you?
There's another mention of the unsourced 1000 amp limit. That's what I replied to pointing out this was impossible since the rumor said 1000 amps at 500 front/rear...and 350v at 500 only gets you to 175, and EPA says the AWD rear motor does 188.
Then I added the battery maxes at 400, which would allow for only 500 amps and 188 kw.
FlyNavy01 replied to that pointing out the battery will likely range between 300-400 volts depending on state of charge. And also said the EPA kw numbers were likely an average output.
So I replied to that reiterating that reinforces the idea the 500a rear limit won't work, since you'd not always be able to hit 188 kw, in fact couldn't do so for 3/4 of the range he suggested the battery voltage varied in.
Where was I unclear?
I'm not the one who keeps bringing up the rumor.
I was attempting to debunk it so other folks drop it since it doesn't appear to fit any actual sourced numbers.
Again if the math there is incorrect, please let me know where and how.
Diamond g said:
There's another mention of the unsourced 1000 amp limit. That's what I replied to pointing out this was impossible since the rumor said 1000 amps at 500 front/rear...and 350v at 500 only gets you to 175, and EPA says the AWD rear motor does 188.
Then I added the battery maxes at 400, which would allow for only 500 amps and 188 kw.
FlyNavy01 replied to that pointing out the battery will likely range between 300-400 volts depending on state of charge. And also said the EPA kw numbers were likely an average output.
So I replied to that reiterating that reinforces the idea the 500a rear limit won't work, since you'd not always be able to hit 188 kw, in fact couldn't do so for 3/4 of the range he suggested the battery voltage varied in.
Where was I unclear?
I'm not the one who keeps bringing up the rumor.
I was attempting to debunk it so other folks drop it since it doesn't appear to fit any actual sourced numbers.
Again if the math there is incorrect, please let me know where and how.
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