Likelihood of a CHAdeMO adapter for the Model S

[Trnsl8r]

Couple of friends went to the test-drive event in Hawthorne today, and they both heard that there will be adapters for both CHAdeMO and SAE QC. I've quoted the relevant section of their post on MNL below. If this were true, it would be a game-changer. I'm still gasping for words... Is this company for real?

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2429&start=330#p209866

Thanks for the link. Off-topic maybe, but this was the part that jumped out at me:

The (battery) design intent, not guarantee, is for the temperature-controlled battery pack to lose no more than 30% capacity over 18 years. Compare that to the disappointing capacity decline being reported for LEAFs after just one year in warm climates.

 

[vfx]

Thanks for the link. Off-topic maybe, but this was the part that jumped out at me:

Me too. Should be in the S battery thread.

 

[mitch672]

from everything that's been said, the Tesla Model S 85KW (and optionally on the 60KW) are going to be "SuperCharger" capable.
The SuperCharger sounds like a DC Fast Charger. I am guessing here, that the "SuperCharger Ready" Model S's, will simply be a set of high power relays, that can switch the input pins on the PC connector, from the onboard AC chargers, to the battery pack itself, allowing for DC access from the SuperCharger.

If that is the case, it certainly would be possible to make a Chademo to Tesla HPC adapter, will they do it? Who knows, but it would be possible, assuming there is access to the pack voltage from the HPC connector, which certainly seems like what the "SuperCharger Ready" hardware is all about.

 

[Jason S]

I've read that one will be available, but we're still waiting on deliveries to more people to find out if they've finished those yet.

Or it could be the usual feature creep that happens in the forums... somebody suggests, we think it is a darned good idea and then figure a timeline.

Dunno the technical details/difficulties. Maybe licensing issues. When we see one, we see one.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The difficultly of CHAdeMO to Tesla does not have to do with the power connection and associated electronics (which basically is the same for any DC-charge capable EV). The difficulty has to do with the handshaking. CHAdeMO uses a CAN interface (2 pins) and also another set of 4 analog control pins (not counting ground).
http://chademo.com/05_interface.html

J1772 and Tesla uses only a single pin control pilot.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...Model-S/page10?p=104399&viewfull=1#post104399
J1772 (both the level 2 and DC version) are pin-to-pin compatible, which means a simple pin-to-pin adapter is possible. Tesla only needs to update the onboard electronics to handle J1772 (they have already done so with the level 2 version, will have to do so when the DC standard is finalized and released).

This is obviously not the case with CHAdeMO. Tesla would need another external box to handle the CHAdeMO handshake and it will not be a simple pin-to-pin adapter. Tesla will also have to join CHAdeMO and/or work out a licensing deal. It's possible, but whether Tesla will make one will depend on demand.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Thanks for the link. Off-topic maybe, but this was the part that jumped out at me:
The (battery) design intent, not guarantee, is for the temperature-controlled battery pack to lose no more than 30% capacity over 18 years. Compare that to the disappointing capacity decline being reported for LEAFs after just one year in warm climates.

That's almost definitely a misquote (mishearing 8 years as 18 years or a typo).

Here's what Tesla official says:

Based on testing, Tesla expects the battery to retain approximately 70% of its initial capacity after seven years or 100,000 miles (160,000 km).

http://www.teslamotors.com/en_HK/models/faq

 

[100thMonkey]

I've now been told by two Tesla reps fresh from visits to the mother ship that plans are very much under way for a CHAdeMO adapter. The demand here in the northwest is being driven by a fairly aggressive roll out of CHAdeMO chargers. Ironically for me, my experience with DC fast charging on our Leaf has been so freeing that it has made me realize that a larger battery pack would lead to convenient long distance travel. My record travel to date is 360 miles in a single day... but that took a lot of extra driving time because of the Leaf's pack size. Bottom line for me, with a CHAdeMO adapter, the S quickly becomes irresistible.

my take on the decision to go with a Tesla proprietary standard on the S is that it's a mistake given the momentum behind CHAdeMO adoption on the west coast, but with what appears to be a universally compatable charger(s) in the S and it's large battery pack, that becomes less of a draw back. CHAdeMO is a bit clunky, but it works, it's here and it's spreading, I'm glad at least to hear an adapter is on it's way, removing a major apprehension I was having to ordering the S.

The difficultly of CHAdeMO to Tesla does not have to do with the power connection and associated electronics (which basically is the same for any DC-charge capable EV). The difficulty has to do with the handshaking. CHAdeMO uses a CAN interface (2 pins) and also another set of 4 analog control pins (not counting ground).
http://chademo.com/05_interface.html

J1772 and Tesla uses only a single pin control pilot.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...Model-S/page10?p=104399&viewfull=1#post104399
J1772 (both the level 2 and DC version) are pin-to-pin compatible, which means a simple pin-to-pin adapter is possible. Tesla only needs to update the onboard electronics to handle J1772 (they have already done so with the level 2 version, will have to do so when the DC standard is finalized and released).

This is obviously not the case with CHAdeMO. Tesla would need another external box to handle the CHAdeMO handshake and it will not be a simple pin-to-pin adapter. Tesla will also have to join CHAdeMO and/or work out a licensing deal. It's possible, but whether Tesla will make one will depend on demand.

 

[W.Petefish]

One thing though, Tesla had their design before CHAdeMO* and J1772 DC. They were not going to change their design of the charge port just because of changing standards as that was one of the first things that they designed. Besides it would require vast engineering changes and the connector that TM is using is more efficient because of the fact that they combined HV DC and standard AC charging on one connector. Neither of which has been done by the CHAdeMO consortium (or association which ever you prefer) or SAE.

*I could be wrong on the exact dates, as I don't work for TM.

 

[stopcrazypp]

One thing though, Tesla had their design before CHAdeMO* and J1772 DC. They were not going to change their design of the charge port just because of changing standards as that was one of the first things that they designed. Besides it would require vast engineering changes and the connector that TM is using is more efficient because of the fact that they combined HV DC and standard AC charging on one connector. Neither of which has been done by the CHAdeMO consortium (or association which ever you prefer) or SAE.

*I could be wrong on the exact dates, as I don't work for TM.

To be fair, CHAdeMO was out first. They started promoting it in 2010 (it was in development for years before that):
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/01/akerwade-20100115.html

However, it's a less than ideal design because it's a separate DC port and max power at 62.5kW is not enough for the Model S.

The J1772 DC design is actually very similar to Tesla's design. It actually supports DC and AC in the same socket and connector (provided your car had a J1772 DC socket). Tesla's design is like J1772 DC "mini". It uses two less pins by using the same power pins for both DC and AC (since they are not used simultaneously).

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

To be fair, CHAdeMO was out first. They started promoting it in 2010 (it was in development for years before that)

Correct, the first consumer deployments in Tokyo were in 2007 I believe and JARI was working on it for years before that.

However, it's a less than ideal design because it's a separate DC port and max power at 62.5kW is not enough for the Model S.

CHAdeMO supports up to 100kW (500V 200A) today and I believe you can buy connectors from YAZAKI with that power rating.

 

[W.Petefish]

CHAdeMO (sometimes spelled CHΛdeMO) is the trade name of a quick charging method for battery electric vehicles delivering up to 62.5 kW of high-voltage direct current via a special electrical connector. It is proposed as a global industry standard by an association of the same name.

Via Wikipedia

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

One thing though, Tesla had their design before CHAdeMO* and J1772 DC.

IMO thats untrue in respect to CHAdeMO which was being publicly deployed in 2007.

IMO Tesla could have easily adapted the IEC Type 2 ("mennekes") connector to support 100kW DC while maintaining backward compatibility with all of the AC standards that exist today. The "mennekes" connector has been around for many years.

 

[rolosrevenge]

Via Wikipedia

Well then, that's easily fixable :wink:

 

[W.Petefish]

IMO thats untrue in respect to CHAdeMO which was being publicly deployed in 2007.

IMO Tesla could have easily adapted the IEC Type 2 ("mennekes") connector to support 100kW DC while maintaining backward compatibility with all of the AC standards that exist today. The "mennekes" connector has been around for many years.

To Quote myself in the same post.

*I could be wrong on the exact dates, as I don't work for TM.

I also don't see where 100kW is on the CHAdeMO website.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Via Wikipedia

It's wrong... not sure how much is in the public domain but certainly you can find 200A connectors;

http://chademo.com/05_concept.html

 

[TEG]

My read was that Tesla was probably working with SAE with the intention of using the combo system, but may have gotten tired of their very slow pace, so finally gave up and decided to go their own way.
If Model S had debuted with SAE Combo plug there really wouldn't be viable infrastructure to support it yet.

Personally, I think they made the right choice as their socket & connector is so much more elegant and user friendly.
It is a little thing, but it differentiates them in a big way.

Yet to be seen what they do for the 3-phase European solution.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

I also don't see where 100kW is on the CHAdeMO website.

Within the CHAdeMO community there is an active discussion about whether 100kW+ charging should move to high voltage AC to reduce current loads on the grid. They talk a bit about this on the website;

http://chademo.com/11_faq.html

However, you can buy 63kW DC chargers today and I've been offered 100kW versions.

 

[W.Petefish]

TEG saves the day. I also think that Elon hated what J1772 DC was becoming.

Back to topic. It is also good to know that the Model S might have CHAdeMO via an adaptor.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Personally, I think they made the right choice as their socket & connector is so much more elegant and user friendly. It is a little thing, but it differentiates them in a big way.

I agree, but that connector already exists... it's IEC Type 2 ("mennekes") which I use every day... nothing new or different, just an international standard that supports 1-3 Phase, V2G, and will be extremely low cost because it will be on millions of vehicles.

 

[doug]

IMO Tesla could have easily adapted the IEC Type 2 ("mennekes") connector to support 100kW DC while maintaining backward compatibility with all of the AC standards that exist today. The "mennekes" connector has been around for many years.

This. The connector Tesla came up with is actually not that different from the extant Type 2 connector. Main difference is they're sadly missing two power pins.

At any rate a CHAdeMO adapter would still be desired for the near term.