Local CBS story, Tesla in autopilot mode hits fire truck

[mmmk]

I think they have the two stories confused and combined into one and I can try contacting them to clarify. They end the story with a quote attributed to firefighters for the highway crash that was actually given by the police in the separate incident where the guy was definitely drunk on the bridge in CA. https://nypost.com/2018/01/22/alleged-drunk-driver-to-cops-hey-my-tesla-was-on-autopilot/ . I'd also have to assume other articles updated more recently would have this info. So thanks for posting the source!

 

[mrElbe]

You are correct. The original Washington Post article differentiates between two drivers - one on the bridge with DUI and the other one slamming into the fire truck.
As usual, the Toronto Star did not do due diligence and merged it all into one. So much for journalism. They just scour the Internet and claim they are reporting on a story.

 

[Exiom]

I don't think I am missing the big picture, because at no point did anyone claim you can activate AP and forget the rest.

Also, even if you did not read the manual, every time you activate AP it will display a message telling you to keep your hands on the wheel and be ready to take over at anytime. So the only excuse for not knowing is that said person is actively and purposely ignoring it. Therefore if you hurt yourself and lose your car... you deserved it... just don't endanger other people with your stupidity.

Claiming that people who don't read the manual "doesn't know" is the real sorry excuse, and just plainly trying to rid yourself of responsibility of your own actions.

I am a dev too, so I know for a fact that beta means unfinished product, so massive flaws, bugs, and deficiencies are actually expected. That's the entire reason for stressing over and over that you need to be fully attentive. If you dont trust AP then don't use it... it is not compulsory and the car drives just as beautifully without it.

 

[Swampy]

Why do the press and so called safety agencies forget that if it wasn't for the tesla the only difference would be that the driver would be dead after hitting a fire truck at 65mph. That's it really, they should have been paying attention and tesla has said time and again to watch what you're doing. The authorities should be arresting the driver not questioning tesla.

 

[ricebucket]

Ricebucket. You are basically saying that AP should be FSD or it is defective.

I should clarify that this is NOT what I'm trying to say.

My key point was my original statement: "the feature needs to be more robust, more intuitive, and more foolproof."

There can be product changes made that improve the feature and make it safer, even if the core technical problems of AP cannot be easily solved (i.e. go from level 2 to FSD). Therefore I don't believe that FSD is the only way to solve this stationary object problem. @Brunton already listed a few ideas on how to improve. There are probably better, less intrusive ways too.

The general concept of making the product more intuitively safe and foolproof is not new to Tesla. That is why the car requires you to hold the steering wheel and will detect if you do not. I would consider that an effective feature.

You can't simply blame an accident on the user, call the cause of an accident a feature by design, and pretend it never happened. Deflecting responsibility is easy. It is a cop-out, pure and simple. I'm sure for legal and marketing reasons Tesla will deny responsibility, but internally they need to think about how to prevent or reduce the inevitable mistakes made by humans. No one designs a deficiency, and given inevitable deficiencies that occur in real-life engineering, Tesla can certainly do better to make it less dangerous.

 

[bro1999]

IMO, calling the feature "Autopilot" was a mistake from the beginning. If you were to ask 100 average joes what "autopilot" means, 99 would respond something along the lines of "a feature that lets a plane fly itself". Then you get those same average joes into a Tesla and they see the same "Autopilot" feature, so what do they think at first? A car that can drive itself!

So out of those 99 people that know what autopilot typically means, maybe only 1 or 2 think a Tesla's Autopilot can do the same thing because they are morons. Unfortunately, those 1 or 2 morons ending up making the news like the guy in the above news story.

 

[ricebucket]

Claiming that people who don't read the manual "doesn't know" is the real sorry excuse, and just plainly trying to rid yourself of responsibility of your own actions.

I am a dev too, so I know for a fact that beta means unfinished product, so massive flaws, bugs, and deficiencies are actually expected. That's the entire reason for stressing over and over that you need to be fully attentive. If you dont trust AP then don't use it... it is not compulsory and the car drives just as beautifully without it.

And Tesla calling it a beta should not be a sorry excuse to rid themselves of responsibility for deficiencies in their product. Why not just call the entire car a beta, and you are free to not use it and drive something else. But of course there's always the danger that every manufacturer will follow suit, and no one will sell non-beta cars ever again... Makes life easy for them right?

I read the manual, and I think everyone should read it. However, I still find the fact that AP1 will not brake in time for stationary car in your lane to be incredibly counter-intuitive. It defies common sense.

 

[ricebucket]

IMO, calling the feature "Autopilot" was a mistake from the beginning. If you were to ask 100 average joes what "autopilot" means, 99 would respond something along the lines of "a feature that lets a plane fly itself". Then you get those same average joes into a Tesla and they see the same "Autopilot" feature, so what do they think at first? A car that can drive itself!

So out of those 99 people that know what autopilot typically means, maybe only 1 or 2 think a Tesla's Autopilot can do the same thing because they are morons. Unfortunately, those 1 or 2 morons ending up making the news like the guy in the above news story.

By the way, Tesla actually ran into this exact problem in China, where they were criticized (sued?) for misleading statements. As a result, the name in Chinese was renamed from "Autopilot" to something along the lines of "auto assistive pilot." (It doesn't sound as awkward in Chinese.) So I'm sure at some level, Tesla recognizes that the name can be confusing.

 

[bhzmark]

My key point was my original statement: "the feature needs to be more robust, more intuitive, and more foolproof."

No it doesn't. It is a car following and lane keeping tool. I want to use that tool exactly as it functions now and I don't want to wait until the tool improves to allow me to go to sleep. When it does great. But I'm smart enough and I think other smart people who know how to use tools as designed should not be denied a tool that makes their drive safer and more relaxing and convenient to wait for a tool that works for the lowest common denominator.

IMO, calling the feature "Autopilot" was a mistake from the beginning. If you were to ask 100 average joes what "autopilot" means, 99 would respond something along the lines of "a feature that lets a plane fly itself".

Yes. I agree that they shouldn't have called it Autopilot. They should have called it car-following and lane-keeping.

However, I still find the fact that AP1 will not brake in time for stationary car in your lane to be incredibly counter-intuitive. It defies common sense.

No. A car-following tool and lane keeping tool doesn't need to stop for all stationary objects -- just as a band saw doesn't need to stop for fingers. The human paying attention needs to control how the tool is used.

Solving the problem of classifying stationery objects as fine, or requiring a panic stop, is a hard problem. It isn't solved yet. So pay attention. And enjoy the lane keeping assistance meanwhile while they solve it.

 

[mmmk]

It's not marketed as a car-following tool though, even if you look at the current website language it talks about whizzing from exit to exit and automatically changing lanes around cars . How can they muster the nerve to talk about automatically changing lanes when identifying a problematic stationary object is so hard as you describe it. It's manipulative on its face. What happens when the car decides to change lanes in future releases and encounters a stationary object in the new lane before it encounters a follow car?

The only responsible thing to do is make a third tier, slash the feature price of the new tier and remove the word autopilot entirely from the description. Because I think we all agree the term autopilot is misleading, I'd suspect intentionally but that's just me I guess. just stop scamming people. Your hubris is endangering people, who wouldn't take such risks without the encouragement of the Tesla hype machine.

 

[Haddock]

Not a Tesla owner yet so please excuse my lack of experience regarding this question. If you have AP1 or 2 engaged and are following a vehicle in front of you and that vehicle moves over to another lane due to a stopped/disabled vehicle in front of him, how will autopilot react?

It will crash

 

[bhzmark]

This is what the website says:

"Your Tesla will match speed to traffic conditions, keep within a lane, automatically change lanes without requiring driver input, transition from one freeway to another, exit the freeway when your destination is near, self-park when near a parking spot and be summoned to and from your garage. Tesla’s Enhanced Autopilot software has begun rolling out and features will continue to be introduced as validation is completed, subject to regulatory approval."

Nothing that suggests that you shouldn't pay attention and watch ahead and react to potholes, obstacles, construction etc. And now that task is even easier when you don't need to make the microadjustments to the steering wheel and accel pedal to stay within your lane and follow the car in front of you.

And in case you forgot, AP reminds you everytime you engage it.

Your hubris is endangering people,

Your ignorance of facts is misinforming people.
AP is safer.

Feds Call Tesla's AutoPilot Safe

"More important, NHTSA said that Autosteer, another element in Tesla’s driver-assistance package, had reduced crashes by nearly 40 percent. Before installation of Autosteer there were 1.3 crashes involving airbag performance for every million miles driven; that fell to 0.8 after installation. "

It's not marketed as a car-following tool though, even if you look at the current website language it talks about whizzing from exit to exit and automatically changing lanes around cars .

 

[mmmk]

I didn't forget the prompt. I'm not ignorant to any of these facts. They are incorporated into my opinion. I also agree autosteer is a great safety feature is many scenarios but they sell an "Enhanced Autopilot" package, not a "Autosteer" package. I stay alert, like the time I had to swerve a semi tire in my lane after the semi I was behind ditched out at the last minute and it appeared out of nowhere. The car would have barreled me into on our first road trip. I never complained about that. I know not to fully trust software

But still calling it 'enhanced autopilot' and charging your customers a premium for the privilege of falling on the sword for Tesla R&D is poor taste at best.

 

[bhzmark]

But still calling it 'enhanced autopilot' and charging your customers a premium for the privilege of falling on the sword for Tesla R&D is poor taste at best.

I paid for a tool that is useful to me when it first came out, is more useful me to when it was improved, and will likely be more useful to me as it is further refined -- for no additional cost. I have no problem with the tool and it's limitations and refinements. But I adjusted my expectations to the facts.

Good thing other people at Tesla made the decision to sell AP with the functionality and limitations that it has. It probably saved lives, or at least reduced accidents as factually demonstrated. It would be immoral to withhold that technology, letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

 

[MP3Mike]

I wonder what software version is on that car? Is it one of the people that refuse to upgrade past 7.x?

 

[bro1999]

NHTSA is investigating the crash along with the NTSB: Second U.S. Agency Opens Probe Into Tesla Autopilot Crash

 

[Canuck]

But no doubt some people just won't get it. But their kids will.

By the time my kids are allowed to drive my Teslas, AP better not be driving into parked vehicles. They have the Leaf to do that themselves for now.

This thread is like poo to the negative nancy tesla dung beatles.... Looking forward to the next leap in AP so I can go a day on TMC without reading the cacophony of mmmmmm where's my FSD daddy?

No one makes you read these threads. But I do enjoy and chuckle at your comments.

Exactly. Some people can use a band saw as a tool. Some people will cut their fingers off.

Appropriate analogy. That's probably why my uncle gave me a long lesson on using a chain saw before we got firewood as a kid and it took a lot of watching and learning before I got to use it. And it's not something my mother and sisters used (sorry to appear sexist -- just stating the facts). I learned a band saw in shop in high school, also with appropriate instructions.

AP is marketed to everyone and my 74 year old mother has a Model 3 reservation and is looking forward to AP. I keep telling her it doesn't really automatically pilot you around, and you must still pay constant attention.

IMO, calling the feature "Autopilot" was a mistake from the beginning. If you were to ask 100 average joes what "autopilot" means, 99 would respond something along the lines of "a feature that lets a plane fly itself". Then you get those same average joes into a Tesla and they see the same "Autopilot" feature, so what do they think at first? A car that can drive itself!

Agreed.

So out of those 99 people that know what autopilot typically means, maybe only 1 or 2 think a Tesla's Autopilot can do the same thing because they are morons. Unfortunately, those 1 or 2 morons ending up making the news like the guy in the above news story.

The same person as above also wrote this? Where's your compassion for morons? My mother is an absent minded person. She is getting a Tesla with AP and thinks like everyone else that it will drive itself. Fortunately, I'm here like my uncle was for me with that chain saw telling her she will have to pay attention at all times, and showing the video of it crashing into a parked truck so she understands the risks. Unlike you, I care about morons. But who's out there protecting all the other morons, like the one who died in the video I posted above?

But maybe we can reach a compromise: before activating AP, I say that everyone, morons included (or especially so), have to watch the video I posted above three times (it takes time for things to sink in with morons and it's a very short video). Then I will agree. How's that for a compromise? It's my form of my uncle.

I wonder what software version is on that car? Is it one of the people that refuse to upgrade past 7.x?

Right. Software is the fix and it's on the way, two weeks from Tuesday. Elon, is that you?

 

[AmpedRealtor]

According to the article:

The Tesla owner's manual says that Traffic-Aware Cruise Control, which is part of the Autopilot system, "cannot detect all objects and may not brake/decelerate for stationary vehicles, especially in situations when you are driving over 50 mph (80 km/h) and a vehicle you are following moves out of your driving path and a stationary vehicle or object is in front of you instead."​

Seems like a pretty basic function, doesn't it? If it can't do something this basic, wow... I've seen ads showing Subarus and Volvos stopping short of a collision with a wall. Tesla can't do even that most basic thing? Again, wow.

 

[Max*]

According to the article:

The Tesla owner's manual says that Traffic-Aware Cruise Control, which is part of the Autopilot system, "cannot detect all objects and may not brake/decelerate for stationary vehicles, especially in situations when you are driving over 50 mph (80 km/h) and a vehicle you are following moves out of your driving path and a stationary vehicle or object is in front of you instead."​

Seems like a pretty basic function, doesn't it? If it can't do something this basic, wow... I've seen ads showing Subarus and Volvos stopping short of a collision with a wall. Tesla can't do even that most basic thing? Again, wow.

Walking or talking are pretty basic functions too. I still see a lot of companies struggling with walking robots and natural language processing.


I'm in no way defending Tesla. They should be more open about the limitations and stop over selling just about everything. BUT it's easy to armchair quarterback and judge the capability without knowing the obstacles and limitations on the technology.

 

[brkaus]

Any brand car, no shortage of videos showing fail on the internet.