Local CBS story, Tesla in autopilot mode hits fire truck

[Dameon]

Not a Tesla owner yet so please excuse my lack of experience regarding this question. If you have AP1 or 2 engaged and are following a vehicle in front of you and that vehicle moves over to another lane due to a stopped/disabled vehicle in front of him, how will autopilot react?

I can validate my statement with video. My car is an AP1 and I commonly have this situation. As I'm following a car, the traffic signal changes ahead of me 1/4 mile away to red. The traffic way ahead of me, in my lane, has been stopped well before my sensors saw it moving. The car I am actively following/tracking changes lanes to get into a shorter lane at the traffic light, leaving my AP1 to now see a stopped car in front of me. It slows and stops appropriately. No issues.

 

[chillaban]

I can validate my statement with video. My car is an AP1 and I commonly have this situation. As I'm following a car, the traffic signal changes ahead of me 1/4 mile away to red. The traffic way ahead of me, in my lane, has been stopped well before my sensors saw it moving. The car I am actively following/tracking changes lanes to get into a shorter lane at the traffic light, leaving my AP1 to now see a stopped car in front of me. It slows and stops appropriately. No issues.

This tends to work best when the revealed car looks like a normal car. It's more prone to failure if the revealed stationary car is a garbage truck, weirdly shaped van, doesn't have a license plate in the center, etc etc etc. There's videos of Autopilot failing to react in such circumstances, and one really does not want to put blind faith into this feature….

 

[SMAlset]

I do hope the investigation reveals what transpired and we all get to learn that. I suspect it will be driver inattentiveness but there could have been other cars in front of him switching lanes suddenly to avoid the firetruck, remember this was the carpool lane traveling at 65mph or more and the car/s would have had to merge into the regular traffic lanes which could have been and probably were very busy at that time. Might be at that point there was no where for the Tesla to go with traffic on the right and the firetruck occupying and blocking the carpool lane and the space next to the barriers (accident was on the other side of the barrier). Ultimately I think it will still be driver "error" and of course there will be a recommendation to make vehicles more sensitive and responsive to incidents like this (easier said than done).

Hope driver is doing well. In any event that looks to be a pretty jarring accident.

 

[chillaban]

I do hope the investigation reveals what transpired and we all get to learn that. I suspect it will be driver inattentiveness but there could have been other cars in front of him switching lanes suddenly to avoid the firetruck, remember this was the carpool lane traveling at 65mph or more and the car/s would have had to merge into the regular traffic lanes which could have been and probably were very busy at that time. Might be at that point there was no where for the Tesla to go with traffic on the right and the firetruck occupying and blocking the carpool lane and the space next to the barriers (accident was on the other side of the barrier). Ultimately I think it will still be driver "error" and of course there will be a recommendation to make vehicles more sensitive and responsive to incidents like this (easier said than done).

Hope driver is doing well. In any event that looks to be a pretty jarring accident.

I would suspect that there will be criticism of the 1-7 following distance settings if it really does boil down to a truck moving out of the way to reveal the firetruck at the last moment.

But yeah, attempting to safely evade a fire truck in LA traffic from the carpool lane is pretty problematic, not to mention the $850 ticket for ordinary crossing of the carpool lane lines subconsciously makes most drivers hesitate to make that decision anyway.

 

[SMAlset]

I would suspect that there will be criticism of the 1-7 following distance settings if it really does boil down to a truck moving out of the way to reveal the firetruck at the last moment.

But yeah, attempting to safely evade a fire truck in LA traffic from the carpool lane is pretty problematic, not to mention the $850 ticket for ordinary crossing of the carpool lane lines subconsciously makes most drivers hesitate to make that decision anyway.

Are trucks allowed in the carpool lane down there?

 

[chillaban]

Are trucks allowed in the carpool lane down there?

It’s complicated. But basically it’s legal. 3 axle vehicles subjected to the lower 55mph speed limit may get cited under the “slower traffic keep right” laws but obviously that’s not well enforced at all.

Everything from trucks to Silicon Valley gigantic commuter coaches use the HOV lanes all the time.

 

[SMAlset]

I forgot about vehicles like buses. Thanks for the reminder.

BTW just saw this Wired article specifically addressing why Autopilot can't see a stopped firetruck:

Why Tesla's Autopilot Can't See a Stopped Firetruck

 

[stopcrazypp]

From other thread:



From the manual :

Yep. This is exactly the case practically every ACC system manual warns about.

 

[jvonbokel]

Tesla allegedly on Autopilot hits firetruck with 65mph • r/teslamotors

For those who didn't click the link, it's to a comment from someone who claims to know the driver. According to him a large pickup truck in front of the Tesla swerved late to miss the firetruck, and the driver didn't have enough time to react. The driver is not sure if AEB engaged or not, but he walked away from the accident and isn't blaming Tesla or Autopilot.

The driver of the Tesla is my dad's friend. He said that he was behind a pickup truck with AP engaged. The pickup truck suddenly swerved into the right lane because of the firetruck parked ahead. Because the pickup truck was too high to see over, he didn't have enough time to react. He hit the firetruck at 65mph and the steering column was pushed 2 feet inwards toward him. Luckily, he wasn't hurt. He fully acknowledges that he should've been paying more attention and isn't blaming Tesla. The whole thing was pretty unfortunate considering he bought the car fairly recently (blacked it out too).
Edit #1: He had some minor cuts and bruises, but nothing serious. As for the 65mph detail, the braking system could've intervened before the collision, but there's no way he could tell.

 

[Dameon]

This tends to work best when the revealed car looks like a normal car. It's more prone to failure if the revealed stationary car is a garbage truck, weirdly shaped van, doesn't have a license plate in the center, etc etc etc. There's videos of Autopilot failing to react in such circumstances, and one really does not want to put blind faith into this feature….

Interesting point. The truck in your posted video is very tricky... the black section could easily be a "shadow" and the blue could be a sign on the side of the road.

I'll do some experimenting on how my car handles different vehicles. I'll report back...

 

[chillaban]

Interesting point. The truck in your posted video is very tricky... the black section could easily be a "shadow" and the blue could be a sign on the side of the road.

I'll do some experimenting on how my car handles different vehicles. I'll report back...

Right, and you can only imagine how much more confusing it looks in black and white (which is how these cameras see the world more or less), compared against the backdrop, on a camera that operates under 20 frames per second.....

Definitely AP1 does a good job ever since 8.0 at stopping for stopped cars, but it’s not totally foolproof, even at slow speeds.

 

[Az_Rael]

For those who didn't click the link, it's to a comment from someone who claims to know the driver. According to him a large pickup truck in front of the Tesla swerved late to miss the firetruck, and the driver didn't have enough time to react. The driver is not sure if AEB engaged or not, but he walked away from the accident and isn't blaming Tesla or Autopilot.

I wonder what follow distance he was using.

My pessimistic side speculates that the follow distances may get tweaked to be less aggressive at the lower numbers after this.

 

[mongo]

I wonder what follow distance he was using.

My pessimistic side speculates that the follow distances may get tweaked to be less aggressive at the lower numbers after this.

Yeah, the numbers needed for obstacle avoidance if the leading vehicle swerves and AP doesn't are not unreasonable, but likely not possible in city traffic.

60 MPH stopping distance of 180 feet (dry conditions, zero reaction time) is roughly a 2 second following distance (176 ft). As this is 10ish car lengths, that gap may not exist for long.

 

[Az_Rael]

Yeah, the numbers needed for obstacle avoidance if the leading vehicle swerves and AP doesn't are not unreasonable, but likely not possible in city traffic.

60 MPH stopping distance of 180 feet (dry conditions, zero reaction time) is roughly a 2 second following distance (176 ft). As this is 10ish car lengths, that gap may not exist for long.

I always use 7 and I wonder if that is closer to the 2 second follow distance. I have noticed 7 is farther away on AP2 at highway speeds than AP1, or at least it seems that way.

 

[scottf200]

Tesla allegedly on Autopilot hits firetruck with 65mph • r/teslamotors

From the top ranked post.

The driver of the Tesla is my dad's friend. He said that he was behind a pickup truck with AP engaged. The pickup truck suddenly swerved into the right lane because of the firetruck parked ahead. Because the pickup truck was too high to see over, he didn't have enough time to react. He hit the firetruck at 65mph and the steering column was pushed 2 feet inwards toward him. Luckily, he wasn't hurt. He fully acknowledges that he should've been paying more attention and isn't blaming Tesla. The whole thing was pretty unfortunate considering he bought the car fairly recently (blacked it out too).
Edit #1: He had some minor cuts and bruises, but nothing serious. As for the 65mph detail, the braking system could've intervene

 

[buttershrimp]

Well, my my my..... it seems AP1 fails horribly compared to my AP2! Which has YET TO drive into a firetruck. I knew Elon was a genius. #progress

My solution to now win all the annoying AP1 versus AP2 arguments on the TMC forum: " wow I guess you're right, my AP2 isn't as good as your AP1... I mean, yeah, my car can't even distinguish between motorcycle and truck, and yours can even render the firetrucks in 3D!"

 

[buttershrimp]

There is probably someone else commenting on this in the thread, but there is no way the car was doing 65 when it hit the truck. Can you imagine how destroyed the Tesla's crumple zone would be? It was probably going 25-35 mph or less after hard breaking.

 

[Phillip L]

So the Tesla was following a pickup truck that was too large to see over (must have been pretty close behind the pickup not to see a fire truck, presumably with its lights all flashing I hope) and the truck swerved just before it would have hit the fire truck. It sounds like there was more than one driver not paying attention. The pickup truck in front of the Tesla had to be going 65 mph heading right into the fire truck, before swerving to avoid it. The Tesla driver/car was either too close to react or there was still enough time but the driver of the Tesla was too distracted to react in time.

 

[mongo]

Ok, that makes sense. However, what does not make sense is to have the system ignore it even though the car is travelling fast in exactly that direction. It does not matter if a car strikes a pole at 60 MPH or a car, the result will be extremely bad anyway.

@ggr
pulled from investor forum...


Tesla's blog post on the subject from 2016.

Tl;dr To answer your question, most of the world looks like a stopped object.

Musings from someone who worked with/on/in imaging radars for a time...

Assuming Tesla is using a Doppler radar, it 'sees' primarily by detecting the change in frequency of a short pulse due to the relative speed difference of the vehicle and an object. The issue is, all stationary objects have the same speed relative to the traveling vehicle (ignoring radar center vs travel vector).

The radar can also detect the magnitude of the returned signal. So a large stationary object can produce a large (vehicle speed) return, whereas the road will produce a weaker return.

A third issue is that, depending on pulse width, rate, and type, a large return an increment of (speed of light/ pulse rate) away will also look like a closer but smaller return (1/16 the strength due to spherical dispersion).

In this case the stopped object was fairly rectangular and rotated relative to the radar, this would reduce the return from the fire truck.

Putting these together, in the case of a Tesla following a truck toward a stopped object:

Tesla radar gets strong return from leading truck, Doppler shift is minimal due to matched speeds. Lots of vehicle speed returns from barriers and road. For most of the approach, the skip pulse under the leading truck does not reach the fire engine.

Leading truck suddenly moves to the side. Radar now has new return from back of fire engine with no shift relative to vehicle speed. Depending on the radar beam pattern, the radar might also still think the truck is in front (without scanning, localization is more difficult).

Software time: does this represent an overpass, stopped vehicle, UFO, pop can in the road?

If the driver is not already breaking, radar return hits a threshold and AEB (possibly) kicks in and says, I don't care: big+close=brakes.

And all this goes on as vehicle is moving at 88 ft/sec (60 MPH) with a stopping distance of 180 or so.

 

[sakimano]

IMO, failing to notice a fire truck in your lane suggests a level of distraction not possible with TACC since you still kind of have to steer. Most likely the driver had Autosteer engaged and zoned out.

Exactly. Firetrucks are fairly noticeable normally

Here in Ontario Canada it is a $400 fine for passing an emergency vehicle at speed without giving them a full empty lane buffer.

Autopilot features are supplementary to you being in control of the car, not a replacement. That's the only way to think of them. You can relax a bit and let the car do most of the work but you need to be planning and looking ahead. I don't know what it would take to drive into a firetruck at 65 mph.

Also, firetrucks are about $400,000 so it will be interesting to see how insurance handles it.