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Lucid Air Will Be Better Than Model S, Says Former Tesla Engineer
- Thread starter TMC Staff
- Start date
PJFW8
Red Menace may hurt me
Their production capacity is modest. a few thousand to start and a few tens of thousands a year later. Their target is the Mercedes S class customer. Zero threat to Tesla. Perhaps it will inspire Tesla to produce a true luxury model S. Still, very impressive specs!
strider
Active Member
Flagship doesn't have to mean luxury like it does for MB and Cadillac. A massive part of Tesla's identity is in having the quickest and longest range EVs on the market. Model S is what holds both of those designations. Once the Taycan beat the SP100D at the Nurburgring, Elon said there would be a Plaid MS. Prior to that, Plaid was being reserved only for the next-gen Roadster.
Assuming there is a decent battery bump, I have been expecting the Plaid MS to be $150k. This would put them under the Lucid in price while offering better performance and range. I do not expect them to try and match Lucid's luxury. Lucid is going after the Chinese market with those reclining rear seats.
If the Plaid has slightly better acceleration and range from a “decent” battery bump past 113kWh and third motor, would the Plaid sell at $150k? It’ll need to be substantially better, which traction will make difficult. Maybe we’ll get 2.3 without launch mode and better freeway passing.
If so, it seems like Tesla/Plaid to Lucid/Air is going to be the equivalent of a Nissan GT-R to a Porsche (not 911). Or a Corvette to a M car or AMG.
Of course, Lucid likely has their own tri-motor large pack sedan. The EV sports sedan performance and range title is unlikely to rest with Tesla in the future imo, a company focused on bringing EV to the masses. Lucid’s start is in EV sports car battery packs, and is basically only focusing on halo cars.
strider
Active Member
Well, Lucid thinks their car can sell at $160k w/ 113kWh and 9.9 1/4 mile time so there is that.
We simply don't know the specs on the Plaid MS. The Roadster needed 200kWh in order to get the discharge profile they wanted. Also, they found the traction to get to 1.9 so obviously it's there.
Considering the Roadster is $200k and hi-po Lucid is $160k, I think a 2.1s 0-60 and 500 mile range MS could sell for $150k. I for one would be very tempted. Though I have this strong desire for an MX, I just can't take the range hit. So if they made a Plaid MX? I would head up to Kansas City for a Test Drive.
You are new here so you may not know this, but Elon has the self-control and ego of a 9-year-old boy. Based on your logic there would be no next-gen Roadster and the CT would look like an F-150. Elon does not want to be remembered for building Electric Camrys. He will respond to the Taycan and Lucid.
Yes, he is an extraordinarily motivated and capable man. Can't wait to see what he comes up with
Lucid is a luxury car going 9.9 and 517 miles for $160k. A non-luxury car will need to do notably better if $150k imo.
If that takes three motors and near 200kWh to best Lucid dual-motor 113kWh, I suspect Lucid would quickly better it. Perhaps not until they release their version of Plaid, which imo is likely not far off.
Will the Roadster tech that overcomes traction on the way to 1.9 to be offered in a 150k production S? The fact the Roadster does 1.9 suggest the Plaid will be tangibly less quick imo.
Based on my logic? What is contradictory? The CT is downmarket, albeit unique. Remember when people thought the S was the standard? The CT will quickly be surpassed in quality imo. It’s unapologetic in its cheapness, which many Tesla fans eat up as appealing aesthetics (like in the M3 and MS), and cheaper than many ICE trucks. The next gen Roadster isn’t contradictory as much as it is a legend. Having an impressive performance sports car doesn’t contradict a manufacturer going mass market- look at the GTR or Ford GT. No one is confusing those two with Porsche. Speaking of, have you driven the Taycan Turbo S? It’s better than the S.
Musk is brilliant and a generational businessman, but Rawlinson is the car savant- the one that made the S the top sedan until he got his own company and had no constraints.
strider
Active Member
You are phrasing mass appeal as being purely about price. I am saying that in the CT's case it is about aesthetics. $70k pickup trucks are common around here so they are mass market, although they are quite expensive.
I like the spartan interior of the S. My wife was furious when we got our newer S and they filled in the console. I have been in BMW's and MBs and Audis and Porsches. I cannot stand the number of buttons and knobs in a Porsche. Those cars try to build a cocoon around the driver. I have no desire to be wrapped in Corinthian leather. I am fit and so do not need to be massaged while driving.
Some people think luxury when they see an English Manor house with tons of heavy furniture and dark wood. Others think luxury when they see marble and gold and other ornate things. Still others think luxury when they see a modern home with tons of light and open spaces. None of them are right and none are wrong. Luxury is defined by each person.
Prior to the Roadster I drove a Corvette. My friends who drove 911's would tease me about my redneck car. But they were just pissed that they spent 3X the money for the same performance. But yeah, the Corvette doesn't have an analog clock on the dash.
Further, I would much rather have a Ford GT than a Porsche or Ferrari.
I guess I really don't know what your point is. The market is plenty big enough for both Lucid and Tesla. If Lucid wants to go after old people and Chinese businessmen then let them.
I like the spartan interior of the S. My wife was furious when we got our newer S and they filled in the console. I have been in BMW's and MBs and Audis and Porsches. I cannot stand the number of buttons and knobs in a Porsche. Those cars try to build a cocoon around the driver. I have no desire to be wrapped in Corinthian leather. I am fit and so do not need to be massaged while driving.
Some people think luxury when they see an English Manor house with tons of heavy furniture and dark wood. Others think luxury when they see marble and gold and other ornate things. Still others think luxury when they see a modern home with tons of light and open spaces. None of them are right and none are wrong. Luxury is defined by each person.
Prior to the Roadster I drove a Corvette. My friends who drove 911's would tease me about my redneck car. But they were just pissed that they spent 3X the money for the same performance. But yeah, the Corvette doesn't have an analog clock on the dash.
Further, I would much rather have a Ford GT than a Porsche or Ferrari. I guess I really don't know what your point is. The market is plenty big enough for both Lucid and Tesla. If Lucid wants to go after old people and Chinese businessmen then let them.
No, I’m phrasing mass market (“to the masses”). That is nearly all about price. You understand the difference between the phrases mass market cars and mass appeal? They’re not mutually exclusive, but they’re also not synonymous.You are phrasing mass appeal as being purely about price. I am saying that in the CT's case it is about aesthetics. $70k pickup trucks are common around here so they are mass market, although they are quite expensive.
I like the spartan interior of the S. My wife was furious when we got our newer S and they filled in the console. I have been in BMW's and MBs and Audis and Porsches. I cannot stand the number of buttons and knobs in a Porsche. Those cars try to build a cocoon around the driver. I have no desire to be wrapped in Corinthian leather. I am fit and so do not need to be massaged while driving.
Some people think luxury when they see an English Manor house with tons of heavy furniture and dark wood. Others think luxury when they see marble and gold and other ornate things. Still others think luxury when they see a modern home with tons of light and open spaces. None of them are right and none are wrong. Luxury is defined by each person.
Prior to the Roadster I drove a Corvette. My friends who drove 911's would tease me about my redneck car. But they were just pissed that they spent 3X the money for the same performance. But yeah, the Corvette doesn't have an analog clock on the dash.
I guess I really don't know what your point is. The market is plenty big enough for both Lucid and Tesla. If Lucid wants to go after old people and Chinese businessmen then let them.
The CT looks cheap and is cheap, other than the slight premium for drivetrain. It doesn’t mean it’s not a quality product, but it’s downmarket, as much as a truck is.
Cheap and minimalistic can manifest is similar superficial looks, but Tesla is cheap. The amount of corners cut and options missing is disappointing, but understandable given the drivetrain tech is not yet at cost parity with its ICE equivalent. Bag hooks are hardly opulent until you have a M3 . Quality on noise reducing seals and dampening is cheap. Lack of driver assistance tech like good 3D back cameras, cross traffic warnings, blind spot warning etc. Tesla is behind Hyundai in many of those.
Luxury is defined by each person? Lol, you probably mean value, but I’ll trust you would pay the Porsche 911 price for the ‘Vette because you find it more luxurious.
uujjj2
Member
BlindPass, the interior of a car reflects the values of the culture that produced it. Tesla is an engineering driven company from Silicon Valley, and the interior is exactly what engineers from Silicon Valley like. Engineers are practical not fancy people. Tesla interiors have a great visibility and tons of usable space, but look the opposite of fancy.
Mr. and Mrs. Uujjj make half a mil per year and have all Ikea furniture in the master bedroom. Tesla interiors are for people like us!
Haha!
The Tesla interior is practical- for a fleet robo taxis. You’ll be able to clean up the puke much better Sunday morning.
PJFW8
Red Menace may hurt me
From the article:
Update: Lucid contacted Teslarati and clarified that another model of the Air will be released and will be priced under $80,000.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Thanks. Yes, I saw that update. I think the $80k version will only be available in 2022 though.
And how much of a decrease in range and performance? I guess they’d just need to be close to current S LR, so they have room to come down.
strider
Active Member
So first of all, my experience is w/ Model S. I have never driven or even ridden in a 3 or Y. But I can tell you that Model S does not feel cheap to me. It is minimal, but that is not the same thing. Again, your view of luxury is that of an old person or Chinese businessman. You want opulence. As @uujjj2 stated, that is the opposite of luxury to me - in fact I find it gross, like solid gold toilets. But as I said, Luxury is defined by each person. I spend my money on things that make a difference with how the car drives, not on Kobe leather with hot stone massage.
On the subject of driver assistance I agree. Elon has Not Invented Here to an extreme degree. They can't even get the windshield wipers to work correctly because they removed a (cheap) dedicated rain sensor in favor of the front cameras.
I would not pay Porsche prices because they are a waste of money. How may thousands do they charge to put a stupid analog clock on the dash?
I still don't understand the point of this discussion. You say the Taycan is "better" than the Model S. Well it costs OVER TWICE the price of a P100D. So it damn well should be a better car. But as the Corvette shows, people will throw good money after bad on a 911 when a Corvette costing 1/3 the price will beat it in every category, except the one you call "luxury."
The point of our discussion? That you didn’t understand the difference between mass market and mass appeal. Or the difference between cheap and minimalistic. I don’t want opulent, I want quality and not skimping.
Like I said, the price info cemented that Lucid is targeting becoming the first luxury EV brand making halo cars, whereas Tesla is increasingly going more downmarket in its ethos, targeting on bringing EV to the masses. I’d bet on Rawlinson and Lucid, which got its start in Formula E, being the leader in EV performance.
This thread will serve as the official discussion thread for the Sep 9 Lucid Air Reveal Live Stream.
The stream will go live at 4pm PDT here: Lucid Dream Ahead | Lucid Brand and Lucid Air Global Launch | September 9, 2020
The stream will go live at 4pm PDT here: Lucid Dream Ahead | Lucid Brand and Lucid Air Global Launch | September 9, 2020
strider
Active Member
-<shrug>- I have been driving Model S's for 8 years now (6 years in our P85 and 2 in our 100D). We only upgraded because we wanted AWD and more range. Both cars have held up extremely well and that is with commuting with 2 small children from newborns to grade school. They have spilled countless things and kicked the crap out of the seats. The seats have had car seats in them nearly permanently. It has made trips to DIY stores. It's hauled compost. . The car still looked amazing when we traded it in and our newer one still looks great. So for you to say that Model S/X are cheaply made and not quality, well you're just f'ing wrong.
Finally, Lucid is not making halo cars. The Roadster is a halo car for Tesla, like the Ford GT is for Ford. Lucid is a boutique manufacturer. I don't know what you mean by betting on Lucid but they are taking reservations. You should go to their website and put your money where your mouth is.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
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