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M3P - Who switched from a (true) sports car?
- Thread starter drew4392
- Start date
I drove next to what looked a brand new McLaren yesterday. I don't know the McLaren lineup that well, but I'm guessing it was either a Senna or a Senna GTR (because of its enormous wing). What an incredible looking and sounding car.
After beating it off the line from a stop a few times the owner of the McLaren rolled down his window and said "How?!" and I just shrugged. Granted, we never got above 60, and we were just going in a straight line. Without question, that McLaren (or any McLaren) would beat my M3LR on a track. Still felt great those few times though.
It gets me thinking how amazing it'd be to have that McLaren except with a Tesla EV drivetrain or similar.
Yep, if you look at the torque curve of electric motors you will basically see a square wave and when combined with AWD and the improvements in traction control you understand how quickly EVs accelerate off the line vs. ICE based vehicles. With the exception of the Model S Plaid, the tables turn though once you increase the speed.
Many of the exotic manufactures are looking at hybrid powertrains to get the benefits of electric motor torque but also have the exhaust sound and gearing for higher speeds. Chevy should release a C8 Corvette E-Ray at some point, which I think may leverage hybrid. Interesting times in the auto industry right now for sure.
jackmott
Member
The Model 3 maintains flat power curve up to about 70mph, then it starts to decline linearally. A two speed transmission would keep it flat to 140, and so on. That is a simpler solution that adding a combustion engine I think. Of course the only people who want that are track day type people which Tesla really doesn't target. Porsche does though! And its got 2 gears instead of 1.
jackmott
Member
I'm very curious though if the Plaid power curve is any different. I think not since it is basically the same motors, just more of them and reinforced.
I have a both a mclaren and a 3 performace in the garage, if they didnt do launch control with hot tires, the tesla will win every time to 60.
Im excited for true electric sports cars... i hope my back still agrees with them by the time they come out.
I guess we need a successful dyno to find out. These guys tried and it was hopping all over the place.
DragTimes Tests Tesla Model S Plaid On The Dyno: Unsuccessfully
In the latest video, DragTimes has visited the HPLogic dyno shop to try the Plaid with a plan to start gently on the accelerator.
insideevs.com
Yes your experience where you all of a sudden have a totally different view of a previously much-loved technology might be the best operational definition of what disruptive technology does in the marketplace. We routinely have the experience when we go to superchargers of everybody basically saying OMG about their cars. This includes people like my wife who are the antithesis of Technology Junkies (of course that would be me and most of the people on this Forum). When you can completely convert the non technology-oriented to a technology that is the equivalent of a screaming 600-foot home run and it is why I believe the adoption of EVs is going faster than anyone predicted and we are now in the exponential ramp phase of the disruptive technology. It's unclear what the time frame might be for maturity in other words where you get to the upper part of the sigmoid curve but I think it's safe to say we're in the exponential ramp, and it can't come too soon given what is becoming clear about the precariousness of climate change and where we are in relationship to critical tipping points
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That kind of hybrid talk might get you a job at Honda and Toyota but won't get you very far anywhere else. Unfortunately except for some people who are exhaust note aficionados, hybrid technology is a big step backwards. Right now no exotic is quicker than the Rimac let alone the Plaid. The high-tech hybrid Acura NSX at around a hundred and eighty thousand bucks is slower than a prior generation Performance Model S and is barely faster then a performance Model 3. Why would you want a slower car that pollutes and that requires lots of maintenance and that is more expensive? Again is the exhaust note that important? And do you need to go faster than 200 miles an hour? Internal combustion engine technology is now Legacy technology and on the way out. Read the tea leaves on that - I understand your Nostalgia but it's already a done deal. Nostalgia aside if you're putting money on any other horse your money is as good as lost.
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I don't disagree with you as it relates to the merits of EV tech but so far there are no affordable performance EVs that I find exciting to drive. I own both an SR+ and M3P and they make great daily drivers but I would not called them exciting to drive. I am referring to more than just performance numbers. I am referring to interior and exterior styling, seating position, suspension, steering feel, and overall driving dynamics. IMO, performance ICE based vehicles still offer more driving engagement. At the moment you can still get a manual, DCT trans with paddles, convertible and yes the exhaust note and vibration you get from a performance engine is a big part of the experience. Just look at the new Corvette Z06 with the flat plane crank engine, they are highly desirable and if you get in line now you will probably get one in 2-3 years. The powertrain is at the heart of a performance vehicle and I find it hard to get excited about a couple electric motors that Tesla doesn't share much info about.
I am sure eventually manufacturers will build more performance oriented EVs catered to enthusiasts but is is going to take a while. It looks like Dodge is the most committed to fun to drive EVs at the moment. We shall see come 2024 what they have in store.
For sure there is a point and squirt simplicity about electric drivetrains and if you love changing gears and doing all that stuff it's a loss. But that's the question is that a feature or a bug?
I'd love to have you drive my tricked-out performance Model 3 that's been breathed over heavily with Mountain Pass parts. Incredibly responsive tight dynamics. Way better than stock, and I have the shocks set so that they're still pretty supple. Could pick up some extra tightness but don't know if I want to drive a much firmer suspension on crappy roads. Obviously the DNA of the car has not changed and you recognize in a sense the original car easily but the Dynamics are just way better. Even my wife admits that it drives way better than stock and she now insists that everything I do to my car I have to do to hers! Who would have predicted that!
As for adding spice to the interior I think I've got a solution to that - Max carbon fiber in both cars. I'm going to post a review on that both the matte and glossy carbon fiber bits covering just about everything you can cover. And of course with the promise to the wife, she's got to have carbon fiber bits everywhere too. So her car has got the matte finish and mine the glossy on just about every available surface. But the glossy kit had to be toned down a little bit to tame the reflections in sunny weather. More on that later!
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Im sold on electric as the future. The sports car will be ice/hybrid for a bit. I track my sports car and can’t see how current EV will work for it. (Not 1/4 mile or auto cross)
You can not get a full day out of a electric car yet. Maybe 1-2 sessions. Charging time is too much for repeated runs.
For the rimac. It will be very fast. But for how many sessions/laps? These Hypercars are so rarely driven. The only ones I see often at the track are P1s. Sennas.
The logic that hybrids have no place makes sense for street cars. But not for sports cars that are tracked.
True for now. . . but keep in mind that all those limitations are due to the early stage of the tech, like waste heat management particularly in the earliest Vehicles like the Tesla S which were not well developed. The Model 3 was a big jump over the early Model S and additional improvements in thermal management in the next generation of vehicles if it's not already there in the Plaid will likely make it possible for you to use your full battery at Max power before needing to recharge. Even now you can get mountain passes oil cooler kit and probably almost double your track time. Building in the heat management is going to make a big difference rather than adding it on as an afterthought even with the best aftermarket stuff. Superchargers at tracks would obviate some of the limitations you've mentioned also. Additionally have to keep in mind that braking is potentially managed by electric motors and with removal of current current limitations for regen you can conceivably have electric braking that's equal to the best fiction brakes with significant reductions in thermal stress and even more racing and track time range. No question that within 5-10 years most of these limitations that you're mentioning are going to be gone.
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Feature or bug? I guess it depends on whether those aspects of a car bring you enjoyment or not. I do appreciate most of the driving improvements of EVs as a daily driver but I am struggling with the Model 3 as the enthusiast fun car so I will have an EV and ICE based model for now.
I think the 0-60mph game is pretty much over at this point. I mean how much faster can we really go on the street? And it is not just EVs, now C8 Stingray Corvettes are hitting 60mph in 2.8 sec since they moved the engine over the rear wheels. The Z06 is supposed to do it 2.6 sec and even quicker once they launch the Hybrid trim, "E-Ray"
It is nice to see that you have dialed in your car and improved the driving dynamics. It is impressive that there is even a Tesla aftermarket available at this point and is a good sign for the future for folks that like to mod. I think for $58k, ($61k when I purchased) though that the M3P should offer more than just a quicker 0-60mph time and a tire and big brake upgrade kit, which are not really upgrades since most want to go back to 18"/19" inch wheels and the brake pads lack the necessary bite for track use. The fact that the LR AWD and M3P performance the same after 60mph is kind of silly as well. Tesla should have found a way to add more highway speed performance or dial back the lower trims. The performance trim should have come with some of the suspension improvements you have made, it should have 19" wheels and on wider rubber, maybe with a little flare in the fenders. There should have been a HUD and seats with better bolstering. I also feel some simple styling changes, maybe a front lip spoiler and rear diffuser would have been nice. I assume eventually Tesla will offer stuff like this but I have a feeling the other brands will do this first as a way to create some excitement in their EV lineup and draw enthusiasts to their brands.
As an M3P owner and car enthusiast, I mostly agree with everything you said. But the reality of EVs is they still have a price premium over ICE (aside from acceleration). You get more car for your money with an ICE still.
5-10 yrs is a life time in new toys/tech. There’s only so much weight management you can do with chassis alone. Battery pack weight will need to drop
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Agreed and I think lots of folks on the forums here (long-standing 'car guys,' and track tuners) have pretty much articulated those points. One of the problems of course with Tesla and with success in general is that people begin to believe that there's nothing that they don't know. If Tesla management had any sense they would recruit people like Sasha and Jesse from Mountain Pass and other folks who have experience in testing and designing rallysport levels of equipment on Teslas and put them in charge of a Rally Sport division. I'm sure what they could produce would be world-class and awesome.
I mean I agree with you for sure that it would be nice if all this equipment was already installed on my car particularly if the shocks were dashboard adjustable which would be awesome. I'm okay with having to do this myself because I guess early on in the adoption of a disruptive technology all this kind of refinement typically simply isn't there. Tesla spent its money on military quality circuit boards and other proprietary technology so I can take the Legacy technology or mature technology of coilovers, forged wheels, and other tuning tricks to get the car where it optimally should be. I'm okay with that extra work because now I have a car that has the best of both new and mature/legacy Tech.
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And all the drama emerges from the Tesla driver red lighting twice! Come on drag X! There's no drama either in this context . . . or in terms of Tesla acceleration for that matter. This level of performance is completely unusable in the real world anyway. It's overkill and it becomes just bragging rights and frankly a version of d--- waving. That's sad I have to confess I wouldn't mind dropping my model 3 0 to 60 time into the twos.
Well the price difference isn't that great frankly, comparing various versions of the Model 3 to comparable sport sedans. And that price difference will be more than eaten up by the difference in maintenance and repair costs,which and the longer you keep and operate the car and the greater your mileage the more of those types of technologies will separate in terms of the bottom line. So actually the EV is cheaper over the long run. Our cost per mile including the cost of solar panels amortized over 10 years works out to ~$0.08-0.10 a mile. That's just untouchable in any ice technology.
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