Market politics

[bkp_duke]

I'm curious to see how many Democrats believe in providing universal health care to undocumented immigrants? This is no way tenable. Even European countries with universal healthcare restrict benefits to citizens.

Elizabeth Warren tells emotional wife of detained immigrant she's 'open to suspending deportations'

"'Medicare for all,' as I put this together, covers everyone regardless of immigration status," she said. "Because I believe healthcare is a basic human right, and we fight for basic human rights."

You know, honestly, this last part bugs me at bit. When did health care transition to a "basic human right"? What level of health care constitutes that right? Generalized preventive and emergency care? All care including sometimes massively-expensive end-of-life care? Do we include cosmetic surgeries because they have a "positive mental benefit" to people? This is such a massively slippery slope.

I'm old enough to remember that when I was searching for my first real job, health care coverage was a "benefit" to be strongly considered with any job offer, it wasn't a universal benefit that was expected to be included.

I could be persuaded for a minimum basic level of preventive care being considered included to citizens, because of the overall benefit to society that something like that could add, but I would expect them to have to give up something in exchange, say 1-2 years of Reserve Military service or something like that in order to obtain health care for life (assuming they were able-bodied, of course). A completely gratis handout with no strings attached that extends to anyone that can sneak across the border? Absolutely not, I would fight that to my last dying breath.

 

[JRP3]

Haven't you pointed out that anyone needing emergency care will get it, regardless of who they are or their ability to pay?

 

[bkp_duke]

Haven't you pointed out that anyone needing emergency care will get it, regardless of who they are or their ability to pay?

Yes, I have. And I consider ER care for TRUE emergencies (not the people that show up wanting a well-child visit) as something that we can cover.

FYI, that is one that hospitals just eat the cost of, they don't get reimbursed in most circumstances (kids, sometimes through CHIP, adults, rarely).

 

[bkp_duke]

'Could you be specific?' Elon Musk, David Einhorn spar over Tesla's finances

Elon does like to poke the bear (pun intended).

 

[JRP3]

FYI, that is one that hospitals just eat the cost of, they don't get reimbursed in most circumstances

You mean spread the cost to everyone else who uses the hospital

 

[Norbert]

The idea that they would leave the country in droves because of a 1-6% wealth tax is ridiculous.

It is also a kind of strange argument in the first place. Something else must be wrong for that to be an argument.

 

[capster]

Bloomberg’s running: Michael Bloomberg Files Paperwork for 2020 Presidential Primary


Edit: Not final, but I read it as more than likely.

 

[SteveG3]

Bloomberg’s running: Michael Bloomberg Files Paperwork for 2020 Presidential Primary

Bloomberg may or may not actually run. This filing just keeps him from being shut out from that option in the state, Alabama, with the earliest filing deadline, today, to be eligible for the state’s D primary.

My guess is that he does not run unless Biden’s numbers utterly implode by the end of this year.

 

[adiggs]

It is also a kind of strange argument in the first place. Something else must be wrong for that to be an argument.

I think the primary issue is that it's annual (at least as I understand the proposal - I haven't invested any effort to speak of).

If one's wealth is 100% in Tesla (as one example), then a 2% annual wealth tax is only payable by transferring 2% of one's Tesla holdings to the government annually. Of course the government doesn't take payment in Tesla shares, so you need to sell say 2.5 or 3% so you can pay the taxes on the sale, and have enough left over to also pay the 2% wealth tax.

One's position in Tesla will be steadily eroded year after year.

One way to mitigate that is for Tesla to pay a 3% dividend annually. Then all of the shareholders subject to the wealth tax will have cash to pay the wealth tax and not need to liquidate shareholding. The downside is that'd be a drag on Tesla's ability to invest. 3% on $50B market cap is about $1.5B - Tesla could make those payments from free cash flow today, but there wouldn't be much left for the other corporate purposes.


Whether you and I relate to the Premium First World Problems (I just coined that) associated with being a billionaire and needing to come up with x% of your wealth for taxes annually or not, the problems exist. Personally I'm persuaded by the argument that the other jurisdictions that have tried wealth taxes have rescinded them and found other ways of doing taxation. Is there anywhere in the world with a wealth tax today?

I'm more in favor of a 50-70% income tax on income over $1M, with the additional simplification of the tax code that the current code applies on the first $1M of income - after that, it's just whatever the tax rate is with no deductions or different kinds of income getting different tax rates (no carried interest, lower rates for capital gains, etc..).

I'm also in favor of the estate tax. I sort of think of it as the wealth tax, except that instead of being annual, it's periodic on the move of the wealth from generation to generation (20 years apart, 50 years apart - whatever the details).

 

[capster]

Bloomberg may or may not actually run. This filing just keeps him from being shut out from that option in the state, Alabama, with the earliest filing deadline, today, to be eligible for the state’s D primary.

My guess is that he does not run unless Biden’s numbers utterly implode by the end of this year.

The article, to me, suggests something has changed and he’s beyond just keeping options open (or he’s always intended to game things). YMMV

From the article:

"While Mr. Bloomberg has not made a final decision to run, his allies say he intends to enter the race..."

"Michael Nutter, the former mayor of Philadelphia who has long been close to Mr. Bloomberg, said word of Mr. Bloomberg’s intentions had taken him by surprise on Thursday night. He said he had spoken to Mr. Bloomberg’s camp and come away convinced that Mr. Bloomberg was ‘serious about running.’"

Edit: As for those of you with the hair trigger disagree’s on my original post, makes me sad for you and our Republic whether you were disagreeing with my imperfect communication of the story or disapproving of Bloomberg making a run. At least @SteveG3 was gracious enough to offer constructive comments.

 

[Norbert]

I think the primary issue is that it's annual (at least as I understand the proposal - I haven't invested any effort to speak of).

If one's wealth is 100% in Tesla (as one example), then a 2% annual wealth tax is only payable by transferring 2% of one's Tesla holdings to the government annually. Of course the government doesn't take payment in Tesla shares, so you need to sell say 2.5 or 3% so you can pay the taxes on the sale, and have enough left over to also pay the 2% wealth tax.

One's position in Tesla will be steadily eroded year after year.

That assumes one doesn't have income anymore. And if the limit for a wealth tax would be at $50 million, it just means that over time, one comes down to $50 million.

However, maybe there should be an exception for Elon Musk, as I would like for him to maintain a strong vote on Tesla's future.

But I'm not necessarily saying that a wealth tax (above a certain level) is better than a higher income/gain tax (above a certain level).
I guess a condition for the latter to work would be an effective (high) limit on loopholes. I don't really have a strong opinion about those things.

EDIT: Or a higher income/gain tax for those who already have a high wealth. I don't know.

 

[SteveG3]

The article, to me, suggests something has changed and he’s beyond just keeping options open (or he’s always intended to game things). YMMV

From the article:

"While Mr. Bloomberg has not made a final decision to run, his allies say he intends to enter the race..."

"Michael Nutter, the former mayor of Philadelphia who has long been close to Mr. Bloomberg, said word of Mr. Bloomberg’s intentions had taken him by surprise on Thursday night. He said he had spoken to Mr. Bloomberg’s camp and come away convinced that Mr. Bloomberg was ‘serious about running.’"

Edit: As for those of you with the hair trigger disagree’s on my original post, makes me sad for you and our Republic whether you were disagreeing with my imperfect communication of the story or disapproving of Bloomberg making a run. At least @SteveG3 was gracious enough to offer constructive comments.

I see what you’re saying re the comments in the article. I could say more, but, not in this thread, lols.

 

[MarcusMaximus]

The article, to me, suggests something has changed and he’s beyond just keeping options open (or he’s always intended to game things). YMMV

From the article:

"While Mr. Bloomberg has not made a final decision to run, his allies say he intends to enter the race..."

"Michael Nutter, the former mayor of Philadelphia who has long been close to Mr. Bloomberg, said word of Mr. Bloomberg’s intentions had taken him by surprise on Thursday night. He said he had spoken to Mr. Bloomberg’s camp and come away convinced that Mr. Bloomberg was ‘serious about running.’"

Edit: As for those of you with the hair trigger disagree’s on my original post, makes me sad for you and our Republic whether you were disagreeing with my imperfect communication of the story or disapproving of Bloomberg making a run. At least @SteveG3 was gracious enough to offer constructive comments.

I didn’t add a disagree, but I believe they were likely for the post being off topic.

 

[capster]

I didn’t add a disagree, but I believe they were likely for the post being off topic.

Thank you for not adding your disagree.

Forgive me if I disbelieve this, as many political posts with particular stripes gyrate on a recurring basis through this thread.

But, yeah, I’ll just shut up. It wasn’t my intention to start a discussion. Just sharing what I thought was a pertinent data point.

 

[Intl Professor]

This is an interesting take on the entry of Bloomberg as a presidential candidate. Thesis: he screws up Mayor Pete's chances.

Elizabeth Warren Couldn’t Be Luckier

Mainstream media already disses Bloomberg as too late entry. Are Dem primary voters turning agist?

 

[bkp_duke]

It is also a kind of strange argument in the first place. Something else must be wrong for that to be an argument.

Actually, it's not all that strange. Consider the following difficulties with taxing say Bill Gates:
1) How do you calculate their wealth? Stocks (if so, do you pick a random day of the stock market close?), real estate (this is extremely subjective on 10+ million dollar homes.
2) How do they pay? If it is 3% on Bill Gates say 100 Billion, or 3 Billion, I guarantee you that he doesn't keep 3 Billion in free cash . . . anywhere. It is almost all locked up in investment. If he has to sell 3 Billion in shares of MSFT in order to pay that tax, it will have a LARGE impact on the share price of MSFT. This would not be isolated to a few select stocks, it would put a large downward pressure on all stocks.

If a wealth tax passed, the VERY next day the stock market would see a 20-25% sell off and we would be square in a recession. The amount of capital outflows from the system would be ridiculous and would send GDP tanking, and HARD, because it would crimp the amount of available capital for investment. In 3-9 months, that would have a material effect on hiring (or even downsizing).

In the end, a wealth tax would result in a capital market constriction, and spiraling GDP. The ultra-wealthy would hoard more cash to pay their taxes, and less would be available for investment. There would be a strong multiplier effect on this with a decrease in investment, putting downward pressure on jobs.

There is a reason even Europe abandoned the wealth tax.

 

[bkp_duke]

This is an interesting take on the entry of Bloomberg as a presidential candidate. Thesis: he screws up Mayor Pete's chances.

Elizabeth Warren Couldn’t Be Luckier

Mainstream media already disses Bloomberg as too late entry. Are Dem primary voters turning agist?

Yeah, he takes of the middle position from Pete for sure, and hurts Biden's chances. All that helps Warren. And I would argue it helps Trump eventually, because if it's Trump vs. Warren or Sanders, the battleground states are never going to vote for a Socialist.

 

[JRP3]

Sanders would probably have beaten Trump in 2016. Trump has not gotten more popular since then.

 

[Norbert]

Actually, it's not all that strange. Consider the following difficulties with taxing say Bill Gates:
1) How do you calculate their wealth? Stocks (if so, do you pick a random day of the stock market close?), real estate (this is extremely subjective on 10+ million dollar homes.
2) How do they pay? If it is 3% on Bill Gates say 100 Billion, or 3 Billion, I guarantee you that he doesn't keep 3 Billion in free cash . . . anywhere. It is almost all locked up in investment. If he has to sell 3 Billion in shares of MSFT in order to pay that tax, it will have a LARGE impact on the share price of MSFT. This would not be isolated to a few select stocks, it would put a large downward pressure on all stocks.

If a wealth tax passed, the VERY next day the stock market would see a 20-25% sell off and we would be square in a recession. The amount of capital outflows from the system would be ridiculous and would send GDP tanking, and HARD, because it would crimp the amount of available capital for investment. In 3-9 months, that would have a material effect on hiring (or even downsizing).

In the end, a wealth tax would result in a capital market constriction, and spiraling GDP. The ultra-wealthy would hoard more cash to pay their taxes, and less would be available for investment. There would be a strong multiplier effect on this with a decrease in investment, putting downward pressure on jobs.

There is a reason even Europe abandoned the wealth tax.

None of that has anything to do with my post.

 

[Norbert]

A completely gratis handout with no strings attached that extends to anyone that can sneak across the border? Absolutely not, I would fight that to my last dying breath.

If that's how you want to spend your last breath, your next life might put you in a situation that makes you wish you could sneak across a border. If you have a next life, that is.