MASTER THREAD: FSD Subscription Available 16 Jul 2021

[CapeOne]

So we're gonna see a lot more of this I guess.

It's one of the factors that goes with opening up a product/feature to a wider audience, in this case due to a lower "entry" price. The risk is that bad PR may cause existing subscribers to cancel their subscriptions and discourage future customers from getting FSD at least in the near term.

 

[CapeOne]

This is an incorrect statement. If you paid for FSD prior to the subscription, you received the upgrade for free.

He wrote “or.” Paying $10k for FSD, or paying $1k for HW (potentially required to get the subscription).

 

[rush6410]

He wrote “or.” Paying $10k for FSD or paying $1k for HW (potentially required to get the subscription).

Thanks for correcting me. I retracted my comment.

 

[FloridaJohn]

It's one of the factors that goes with opening up a product/feature to a wider audience, in this case due to a lower "entry" price. The risk is that bad PR may cause existing subscribers to cancel their subscriptions and discourage future customers from getting FSD at least in the near term.

Or force the government to get involved.

 

[raptor5244]

Product description has changed many times.

btw, current description is not “quite clear “ imo.

Autopilot

All new Tesla vehicles are equipped with the hardware needed for Autopilot and Full Self-Driving capability features, designed to improve functionality over time.

www.tesla.com

We know, that these features don’t work at the moment, but I don’t think, that it is “quite clear “ if you look at the page

View attachment 688315

And every single time it was clear the features are not autonomous presently.

The only thing that has really changed is what FUTURE NOT HERE YET features it has listed.




How is "FUTURE features" not clear that they are not PRESENT features?

Especially when on the actual purchase page it has always told you existing features are NOT autonomous?

What's unclear here?

View attachment 688329

I think we agree on the fine print. I think this is a moral debate as it relates to how far they should stretch the marketing truth and be held accountable to realistic time frames. Tesla makes great vehicles but this kind of stuff can rub folks the wrong way and hurt the brand. I know there are many Tesla fans here that think they can do no wrong. I am a fan as well and own two Model 3s but I always thought they were pushing this one a bit too far. A lot of folks are out $6-$10k with not much to show for it and have very little chance on recouping any of it back on resale. Furthermore, Tesla won't even let you migrate the FSD software to another Tesla if you stay within the brand. It is like a double slap to the face.

 

[Knightshade]

I think we agree on the fine print

I think a number of us do.

A few folks like Gearcruncher still think they can do sue over this without even having bought FSD at all.

. I think this is a moral debate as it relates to how far they should stretch the marketing truth and be held accountable to realistic time frames

Absolutely a fair criticism.

My only response would really be-- they have no idea what a realistic time frame is- because nobody has ever invented this before.

Since the continued update and development of it is somewhat integral to the product- you can't really ask Tesla to just never mention their future goals.

So it's difficult to see wording that is both sound legally, and would be more "fair" than the current wording... but I'm certainly open to thoughts on what that would look like.

. Tesla makes great vehicles but this kind of stuff can rub folks the wrong way and hurt the brand. I know there are many Tesla fans here that think they can do no wrong.

FWIW I think there's plenty they do wrong, especially on the customer service/relations/communication side.

But so long as demand exceeds supply-- and it does- massively-- there's relatively little motivation for them to pull resources from elsewhere to address that.

I am a fan as well and own two Model 3s but I always thought they were pushing this one a bit too far. A lot of folks are out $6-$10k with not much to show for it

All the folks who paid 6-10k have a lot to show for it.

All the same features people were happy to pay $5k for, for years, for EAP... plus one additional feature--- and one or more future features (including the city streets we have in limited beta right now).

The only people who got very little for their money feature-wise are the pre-3/19 buyers.

Who only paid 2-3k-- and thusfar have only gotten the one additional feature (stop signs and lights) for it.... though they also got HW3 for free, which we now know is a savings of at least 1k

and have very little chance on recouping any of it back on resale

A few folks have said this, but I've not seen much evidence of it having no resale value.

. Furthermore, Tesla won't even let you migrate the FSD software to another Tesla if you stay within the brand. It is like a double slap to the face.

But that's always been true.

It was true of the lifetime supercharging they used to attach to new car sales too (and that got even worse, the first few years it at least stayed with the car, then in later years of the program even the second owner of it doesn't get it)

 

[Mardak]

The last question from the 2021 Q2 earnings call was from Pierre Ferragu asking about the effects of offering FSD subscription. Zach Kirkhorn said they looked at existing orders / backlog for FSD purchase cancellations presumably preferring subscription, and so far there hasn't been much perhaps due to Tesla's intentional pricing strategy of $199/mo.

Elon Musk also suggested the pricing is likely to be wrong especially as value proposition changes. Top priority is getting FSD working for it to be a compelling value proposition as otherwise people are betting on the future. "Right now, does it make sense for someone to do a FSD subscription? I think it's debatable. But once we have FSD widely deployed, then the value proposition will be clear. And at that point, I think basically everyone will use it."

 

[stopcrazypp]

I think we agree on the fine print. I think this is a moral debate as it relates to how far they should stretch the marketing truth and be held accountable to realistic time frames. Tesla makes great vehicles but this kind of stuff can rub folks the wrong way and hurt the brand. I know there are many Tesla fans here that think they can do no wrong. I am a fan as well and own two Model 3s but I always thought they were pushing this one a bit too far. A lot of folks are out $6-$10k with not much to show for it and have very little chance on recouping any of it back on resale. Furthermore, Tesla won't even let you migrate the FSD software to another Tesla if you stay within the brand. It is like a double slap to the face.

A bulk of the price however is from EAP features (which was $4k-$7k when it was offered, depending on if you ordered it with the car or not). That's something a lot of people are forgetting. The option purely for FSD (upgrading from EAP) started from $3k and reached its peak at $7k (although don't quote me on the last part, it may be from upgrade from AP).

 

[Knightshade]

A bulk of the price however is from EAP features (which was $4k-$7k when it was offered, depending on if you ordered it with the car or not). That's something a lot of people are forgetting. The option purely for FSD (upgrading from EAP) started from $3k and reached its peak at $7k (although don't quote me on the last part, it may be from upgrade from AP).

AFAIK it was never higher than 3k (if done at car purchase time) to add FSD on top of existing EAP, though it was 4 or 5k if purchased later.

So "all in" cost from "nothing" to "FSD" has always been in the 8k-10k range since launch in late 2016.

(I suppose technically all in was a little less for that brief 2-weeks-and-we-made-a-mistake sale in 2019)

 

[raptor5244]

A few folks have said this, but I've not seen much evidence of it having no resale value.

I recently sold my M3P to Carmax to take advantage of the crazy used market and help minimize my depreciation while I wait for the Cybertruck. I got offers from Carvana and Vroom as well. They all offered within $500 of each other. I ran the same car with FSD and none of them would add more than $500 for FSD. I assume if you have the right buyer then you could probably recoup some FSD money but when selling to dealership they are not willing to pay $5-$10k more for vaporware. Maybe this will change in the future but I doubt it since HW3 will be considered old, the cameras will be outdated, etc.

 

[Knightshade]

I recently sold my M3P to Carmax to take advantage of the crazy used market and help minimize my depreciation while I wait for the Cybertruck. I got offers from Carvana and Vroom as well. They all offered within $500 of each other. I ran the same car with FSD and none of them would add more than $500 for FSD. I assume if you have the right buyer then you could probably recoup some FSD money but when selling to dealership they are not willing to pay $5-$10k more for vaporware. Maybe this will change in the future but I doubt it since HW3 will be considered old, the cameras will be outdated, etc.

Oh, yeah I wouldn't expect some automated estimate service to count it for much... (also, I assume it asked about EAP and FSD? if so it probably is using the 3k-when-new value for FSD)

Again though, it's not vaporware- and folks who keep misusing that term might wanna look up its actual definition.

it exists- and it delivers specific, defined, features you don't get otherwise... (far more of them for folks who didn't otherwise have EAP, which is MOST tesla owners at this point).



But if you are selling to a private buyer who actually WANTS to OWN FSD- you'd obviously be able to recoup most of its cost.. since their only other option is paying full price to Tesla for it.

And if you care about getting the best price for your car that's what you'd be doing anyway.

 

[Gor-Gor]

Most companies don't, and none should, market/sell existing products with promises of "future" (unspecified time frame) functionality or features for those products unless those functions/features are fairly certain to become available at least within an average ownership period.

If a company is stating that the product purchased will have the capability of doing XYZ in the future, it should be able to do so within a reasonable time frame (e.g., average ownership period) at no additional cost to the buyer (unless clearly specified otherwise).

If a company is unable/unwilling to fulfill those "future" promises in an acceptable time frame, some kind of refund should be provided. A "money back guarantee" of sorts.

I'm in agreement, just starting is not just Tesla. We as consumers have been taking it up the backside for years, with little recourse as to a solution.

 

[Fourdoor]

I can't understand how anybody could NOT understand that unless they are intentionally going out of their way to misunderstand.


Tesla explicitly tells you it's NOT autonomous (and lists the actual features) on the purchase page.

Then tells you that again the cars manual.

Then tells you that again when you go into the menus to activate the features the first time.

Then tells you that every time you turn on the features while driving.


I can get how someone who doesn't actually own a Tesla and hasn't ever heard anything about them except poorly written news stories might not understand what FSD actually is.

But anyone else? Seems like you'd have to be ignoring a half dozen bits of education all put directly in front of your face for that to be so.

You know what Tesla told me? Somewhere between Jack and $hit.

If I sell you software named "protect your baby" and put in the ULA that using the software entitles me to take your child as a method of protecting them, is it reasonable to assume that you read the ULA and will not be upset when I take your baby from its cradle at the Hospital?

I researched the cars myself, not many people I know (other than myself) read the owners manual cover to cover before receiving their car... If I had NOT researched the car, and having English as my native language I would have thought that Tesla had Full Self Driving as a $10,000 option in its cars! Silly me! Thinking that a company selling cars with Full Self Drive actually has cars with Full Self Drive! I should be ashamed of myself!

Hell, to me part of the bait and switch is the price. If they offered FSD at $1,000 I would be a bit skeptical as a customer and do more research... at $10,000 with the name "Full Self Drive" a reasonable person thinks they are getting a car that can drive them around while they nap in the passenger seat.

Keith

 

[Fourdoor]

Cool story!
Let us know of your solution that can handle L5 FSD.

Sure, send me $10,000 and I will promise you FSD in your Honda at a future unspecified date. No hardware required.

Keith

 

[Fourdoor]

The last question from the 2021 Q2 earnings call was from Pierre Ferragu asking about the effects of offering FSD subscription. Zach Kirkhorn said they looked at existing orders / backlog for FSD purchase cancellations presumably preferring subscription, and so far there hasn't been much perhaps due to Tesla's intentional pricing strategy of $199/mo.

Elon Musk also suggested the pricing is likely to be wrong especially as value proposition changes. Top priority is getting FSD working for it to be a compelling value proposition as otherwise people are betting on the future. "Right now, does it make sense for someone to do a FSD subscription? I think it's debatable. But once we have FSD widely deployed, then the value proposition will be clear. And at that point, I think basically everyone will use it."

Elon needs to lay off the marry jane.

If by getting pricing right he means lower it to $50 a month, then I can see many more people subscribing on an ongoing basis rather than doing it for one or two months a year if they like navigation on AP for long trips... but I have the feeling that he will be raising the price when FSD Beta becomes the FSD release version. In my area of the country, talking with the only other Tesla owner at my job (he did a one months subscribe as soon as it was available) the Navigate on AP doesn't work worth a damn here... so, I will waste $200 to try it out for my vacation next month, but I have a strong feeling that I will try it that one time in the "as is" configuration, and I will try it again when "Beta" becomes the release version... and then never again.

Also, if they want people to keep purchasing FSD, they need to do the tiered pricing again. "$10,000 if you purchase before car delivery, $15,000 if you purchase FSD after car delivery" They have to scare people into purchasing before they try it via subscribing for a month, or they are going to loss a lot of FSD sales.

Keith

 

[raptor5244]

Elon needs to lay off the marry jane.

If by getting pricing right he means lower it to $50 a month, then I can see many more people subscribing on an ongoing basis rather than doing it for one or two months a year if they like navigation on AP for long trips... but I have the feeling that he will be raising the price when FSD Beta becomes the FSD release version. In my area of the country, talking with the only other Tesla owner at my job (he did a one months subscribe as soon as it was available) the Navigate on AP doesn't work worth a damn here... so, I will waste $200 to try it out for my vacation next month, but I have a strong feeling that I will try it that one time in the "as is" configuration, and I will try it again when "Beta" becomes the release version... and then never again.

Also, if they want people to keep purchasing FSD, they need to do the tiered pricing again. "$10,000 if you purchase before car delivery, $15,000 if you purchase FSD after car delivery" They have to scare people into purchasing before they try it via subscribing for a month, or they are going to loss a lot of FSD sales.

Keith

I am still surprised that Tesla keeps raising the price of the FSD package. I do think once more competition shows up, GM Super Cruise becomes available in more models next year Tesla will be forced to reconsider the FSD pricing model. I mean FSD is 25% of the price of an SR+ or CyberTruck RWD model.

Many of the reviews of Super Cruise say it performs better than AutoPilot even if it is geo-fenced since the majority of roads have been mapped now.

Site Maintenance

Cadillac Super Cruise Review: How Does It Compare to Tesla’s Autopilot?

A 2021 Cadillac Escalade equipped with Super Cruise drives as well as a Tesla with Autopilot (even if it doesn’t have as many features) and it’s safer, too.

www.motortrend.com

 

[qdeathstar]

Hi All, my first post here.

so, then no questions about ordering, delivery, range anxiety... well, seems legit let’s keep going.

I just subscribed for the monthly subscription for FSD few days ago, but I'm afraid I will be cancelling once the month is over. $199 doesn't justify how much I'll be using per month. Basically, I'm spending $199 for auto lane change on highways. I can't imagine some of the owner's frustration after spending $10k on a FSD package, or having to pay $1k for a HW upgrade... I'm not sure why some of you insist on a calculation of monthly subscriptions breaking point. That calculation is so far off. It's based on if YOU have the subscribe to it every month without any intermittence. I think offering Subscription was a bad move from Tesla. It's actually promoting the buyers not to get the full FSD package. I'm not sure how many of the owners are actually impressed with the performance of the FSD...

Have you been living under a rock?

Love my 2020 Tesla 3 Basic Model with the only AP upgrade,

Hey! I’m not a troll...

but bit surprised how many gullible buyers that gets caught up on the "robotaxi" and fully operational FSD promise for the last 5 years.

...but you people who bought FSD are stupid.

Hey, I forgot I just said I bought fsd.

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but FSD . By the way, one of my neighbor purchased full FSD package for 7K several years back listening to Elon Musk that it will be completed "soon". She passed away few weeks ago... Never even got to use it. She was planning to use it to drive her to the doctors office and back.

Well, I guess she is under a rock... or well, at least next to one?

 

[CapeOne]

I am still surprised that Tesla keeps raising the price of the FSD package.

I'm surprised it isn't more expensive. I mean, the value of FSD will probably be in excess of $100k in the future. Musk said so himself.

 

[raptor5244]

I'm surprised it isn't more expensive. I mean, the value of FSD will probably be in excess of $100k in the future. Musk said so himself.

View attachment 688656

I always tend to buy cars that are fun to drive so I never really got all caught up in the self driving hype. I mean it is cool and all but it is spoils all the fun for someone who actually enjoys driving. For someone like myself the thought of spending thousands of dollars so I can babysit my car take me to the grocery store just seems ridiculous. I do fully appreciate the features that improve safety, enhance the driving experience and help reduce driving fatigue. Rear Cross Traffic Alert and Blind Spot Monitoring are great. Rear backup camera with grid lines to help aid in parking. A front bumper camera, sensors to help with parking in tight spots and avoid hitting parking blocks, awesome.

 

[raptor5244]

Elon Musk said it's 'debatable' whether it's worth paying $199 for Tesla's 'Full Self-Driving' subscription