MASTER THREAD: FSD Subscription Available 16 Jul 2021

[gearchruncher]

because only those folks were explicitly promised L4 during the purchase.

I was explicitly promised that the HW in my car is CAPABLE of FSD. It's not. Because of this, I cannot subscribe to FSD, nor can I see free FSD visualizations without paying an additional amount that people with newer hardware do not need to pay. They broke an explicit promise that my car would be capable of this.

Why is one explicit promise by Tesla something you expect them to hold themselves to, while others are no big deal if they break them? Did you note the only explicit promise Tesla made was an upgrade to 2.5? So an upgrade to 3.0 is on Tesla's goodwill, not because they promised it.

Do you really want to go down the path of things "Tesla" explicitly said would happen, but never did? Because unnamed spokesperson in 2017 counts as an explicit promise, but CEO communications do not?.... Remember, there's an Elon tweet/investor call for everything.

I expect that to remain true for HW4 (or whatever else is "needed") for those who bought it, just as it was true for 2.5 and 3.

Ahh, see, you expect it... But you also know Tesla hasn't promised it, and it isn't in any contract, despite you saying that buying FSD for sure gets you upgrades forever. I expected my car to have the HW needed for FSD because I was promised it, and look how it turned out. HW4 is going to be a complete mess, and all the people with HW3 right now going "why would you ever expect free HW upgrades!?" are going to have a very different tune when it applies to them.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The damages exist either way. HW2 cars will be worth less on the resale market if buyers know they can't subscribe to FSD on them, only purchase it outright.

That's much harder to prove though, esp. given plenty of arguments that even a outright $10k FSD purchase does not really help resale value much. The HW upgrade fee in contrast is clean and clear cut.

Also, HW3 cars do visualizations that HW2 cars cannot- and Elon says this will continue to improve. There is value in having HW3 even if you don't pay for FSD, and Tesla said this HW was included in your purchase.

But that's unrelated to FSD though, Tesla didn't promise there won't be feature differences in future HW (it's almost self evident there will be, as that's the whole point of upgrading HW).

Anyways, this point is kind of moot to discuss given Tesla didn't go this route and it's practically impossible they'll choose to change to this route going forward. They could still do the minimum term or different monthly rate however.

 

[Knightshade]

I was explicitly promised that the HW in my car is CAPABLE of FSD. It's not.

Except, if you purchase FSD, it is- because they'll install whatever HW is needed for that to work at no extra cost.

Which is the same thing that has been true for years.

Because of this, I cannot subscribe to FSD

Which is an ability you not only were not promised when you bought the car- it did not even exist

, nor can I see free FSD visualizations

Which is also something you were never promised.

And which isn't actually part of "FSD"-- even people without FSD, but with the new computer, have it.

Ahh, see, you expect it... But you also know Tesla hasn't promised it, and it isn't in any contract

It is though.

Getting the FSD computer was explicitly called out as something you got with buying FSD (for the cars that don't already have it obviously).

So it's not like the idea "Buying FSD insures you get whatever HW you need to run FSD" isn't something REPEATEDLY communicated in writing including during the purchase process

 

[EVDRVN]

FSD will end at HW3.

HW4 will operate brand new product software "Tesla AutoDrive". No relation whatsoever to FSD, so they will have no obligation to upgrade anyone.

Un

....what?

FSD was offered at the time.

If you "had" it you'd get the HW upgrade for free.




I had every FSD feature that was offered then with EAP so what would I be buying with FSD other than the promise of more features that my cars hardware was promised to be capable of using. Had to be at least one more feature. You still miss the point, what was my cars capable of that I would get with the existing hardware that was promised to be FSD capable? What capability did I pay for in my HARDWARE as promised? Everything changed when Tesla put a paid hardware upgrade requirement on something that was promised to already have that capability. You can split it any way you like but I don't need to even want FSD to be entitled to get what was promised and that was FSD capable hardware and I should be able to get whatever those features are on my hardware with out any penalty.

 

[Knightshade]

I had every FSD feature that was offered then with EAP so what would I be buying with FSD

A free HW upgrade for one

Everything changed when Tesla put a paid hardware upgrade requirement on something that was promised

Nobody ever promised you would be able to subscribe to FSD.

You can still get FSD, at no hardware cost, by BUYING it.

Just like you could the day you bought the car.

 

[rxlawdude]

Service Centers will NEVER catch up to the rest of the company if they maintain the "no profit from service" mindset.
...

OR they admit communism never works and try to make money off of service centers.

Really necessary for you to bring up political terms where they have no relevance?

 

[gearchruncher]

It is though.

Getting the FSD computer was explicitly called out as something you got with buying FSD (for the cars that don't already have it obviously).

You keep saying this, but you cannot point to a place where Tesla says it.

You also, continuously say Tesla said something "explicitly" as if that makes it true, but Tesla explicitly said that my car DOES have HW needed for FSD.
It does not.

And which isn't actually part of "FSD"-- even people without FSD, but with the new computer, have it.

Oh look. A feature tied only to what HW you have, even though you were promised the car ALREADY has ALL THE HW NEEDED. The feature they sold was ALL THE HW NEEDED, not "FSD" or "FSD visualizations." They were specifically, explicitly selling on the future capabilities of the car, now capabilities now.

Seriously, this is not a discussion about what Tesla told you that you could eventually buy. They flat out said the car has the HW needed. It doesn't. Now there is differentiation based on HW, and they expect their customers to pay to resolve that. That's not OK. The sales method isn't even relevant when the lack of the HW means the car can't do free FSD visualizations.

Question- would you pay exactly the same amount for a used April 2019 HW2 car as a April 2019 HW3 car with otherwise identical features? If not, well, there's the only thing you need to know about why Tesla's promise of all HW matters.

 

[CapeOne]

The statement was about the FSD product sold as a purchase.

And it remains accurate. BUY FSD and there's no cost for any HW to that customer.

FSD subscription is a different product nobody was promised anything about previously

If it, like the purchase, had "perpetual HW upgrades" included, the price would be higher.

The statement was about having the hardware needed for FSD, not how one may pay for FSD or even that someone is required to get FSD. If the cars "have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability" then no upgrade would be necessary. Again, NO upgrade would be necessary.

The fact that an upgrade is necessary for FSD shows that the statement was indeed inaccurate. Given its clear inaccuracy, Tesla should be required to either make it "accurate" by installing the necessary hardware at no charge or give customers an amount equal to the value which would make the statement true.

 

[Knightshade]

The statement was about having the hardware needed for FSD, not how one may pay for FSD or even that someone is required to get FSD.

So there's a legal concept here-- if they promised you something and can't deliver it they need to make you whole in some way.

But you have to have an actual loss for that to apply.

If you BUY FSD, and can't use it without more HW, they have to give you the HW (or refund you in some way I suppose).

So- they give you the HW.

The fact that an upgrade is necessary for FSD shows that the statement was indeed inaccurate. Given its clear inaccuracy, Tesla should be required to either make it "accurate" by installing the necessary hardware at no charge

THEY DO.

Buy FSD and they install the HW at no charge.

That (buying FSD) was the thing you were promised you had all the HW for.

So if you buy it- they must upgrade it free. Which, again, they do


The subscription has nothing to do with any of the above as it did not even exist when any promise was given nor when these cars were sold

You keep saying this, but you cannot point to a place where Tesla says it.

I've pointed to 3 different ones already. Including during the purchase process of FSD

You've decided there's literally no evidence you will accept though.

 

[UCIBtheG]

The subscription service is a new offering that did not exist in 2016

So anyone suggesting anybody was "promised" access to it back then is... not clear on the direction in which time flows.

Hi there Knightshade, I've seen in the past on multiple occasions you STRONGLY assert that Tesla owes those who purchased FSD on or prior to ~March 2019 nothing less than true (at least SAE Level 4) full self driving, and that those who purchased after that time were sold a different bill of goods, and are owed something less. You pointed to the language on the website from the time which defined FSD to support your claim.

Clearly, true Level 4 self driving did not exist at the time of purchase for those that paid for it. It is an offering that did not (and still does not) exist, as I quoted you above. So why, when Tesla has said since the inception of the Model 3 that it includes all hardware necessary for full self driving (with no * or exceptions), should it be any different that those of us with EAP 2.5 to expect them to live up to their word? If the words on their website at the time of purchase can't be trusted, then why are you so invested in the idea of those who purchased FSD before that 2019 date are due anything more than those that bought it afterward?

 

[Knightshade]

Hi there Knightshade, I've seen in the past on multiple occasions you STRONGLY assert that Tesla owes those who purchased FSD on or prior to ~March 2019 nothing less than true (at least SAE Level 4) full self driving, and that those who purchased after that time were sold a different bill of goods, and are owed something less. You pointed to the language on the website from the time which defined FSD to support your claim.

To be clear, I said they owed pre 3/19 drivers specific features that they promised in writing.

AND that those features describe a system that is at minimum an SAE L4 system.


Which isn't the same as saying they "promised L4"

Clearly, true Level 4 self driving did not exist at the time of purchase for those that paid for it.

Nor would it need to.

They described the specific things the car would be able to do for owners of FSD.

It will eventually need to do those specific things for owners of FSD.

It is an offering that did not (and still does not) exist

The OFFERING existed.

The promised deliverable did not.

Those are different things.

When you fund a kickstarter the thing you are kick starting may not exist- but they still owe it to you at the end.

They do not owe you a different offering never mentioned during the kickstarter (which is what the subscription is)

 

[gearchruncher]

I've pointed to 3 different ones already. Including during the purchase process of FSD

You've decided there's literally no evidence you will accept though.

"Full self driving computer" is Tesla's current term for HW3. Remember, HW2 was also a full self driving computer. So notice, it does NOT explicitly say that future HW upgrades are included. Just that the computer which is included in all cars as part of the base purchase is also included???

But all of this is moot. That's for a new car purchase, and what we're discussing is cars sold 2016-2019. Here's what purchasing FSD looks like for a current HW2.5 car:

There's no mention of a HW upgrade at all, much less the promise that they will continue to upgrade if the current "Full self driving computer" is insufficient.

I'd still like to see any document that said if you buy the FSD capability, Tesla promises that for the life of the car, they will upgrade any HW needed to get the car to L4 capabilities. Not just HW2 to HW3 or "Full self driving computer."

 

[rxlawdude]

Hi there Knightshade, I've seen in the past on multiple occasions you STRONGLY assert that Tesla owes those who purchased FSD on or prior to ~March 2019 nothing less than true (at least SAE Level 4) full self driving, and that those who purchased after that time were sold a different bill of goods, and are owed something less. You pointed to the language on the website from the time which defined FSD to support your claim.

Clearly, true Level 4 self driving did not exist at the time of purchase for those that paid for it. It is an offering that did not (and still does not) exist, as I quoted you above. So why, when Tesla has said since the inception of the Model 3 that it includes all hardware necessary for full self driving (with no * or exceptions), should it be any different that those of us with EAP 2.5 to expect them to live up to their word? If the words on their website at the time of purchase can't be trusted, then why are you so invested in the idea of those who purchased FSD before that 2019 date are due anything more than those that bought it afterward?

If you only paid for EAP, you don't qualify for HW3. It's pretty simple. If you paid for FSD, of course Tesla is currently obligated to update you to HW3 and any other hardware necessary for all FSD functions as generally released (beta, GA, etc.).

 

[gearchruncher]

If you only paid for EAP, you don't qualify for HW3. It's pretty simple. If you paid for FSD, of course Tesla is currently obligated to update you to HW3 and any other hardware necessary for all FSD functions as generally released (beta, GA, etc.).

So, if I read this right:
Buy a physical car, which is sold as having the HW needed for FSD, in writing. In that case, Tesla is NOT obligated to make that statement true for unmentioned reasons, even though it means the car has a reduced feature set compared to cars where it is true.

Buy a software package, which does not mention hardware in any way as part of the purchase process, and Tesla is obligated to upgrade you to HW3 and anything else in the future.

Yep, sounds pretty simple. And completely nuts.

 

[Knightshade]

So, if I read this right:
Buy a physical car, which is sold as having the HW needed for FSD, in writing. In that case, Tesla is NOT obligated to make that statement true for unmentioned reasons, even though it means the car has a reduced feature set compared to cars where it is true.

Nope.

It means Tesla is not obligated to make that statement true unless you buy FSD

You can't complain you didn't get fries with your burger unless you ordered a burger.

Buy a software package

Which you were promised your car could use if you bought it at the time you bought the car.

So they're obligated to make that true.


They are NOT obligated to enable that car to subscribe to a NEW THING that didn't exist when you bought your car.


I'm not sure if explaining this the 39th time will help but hope springs eternal!

 

[KArnold]

Oh, you want WHEELS with that car??

 

[flyingowl]

I don't understand what is going on with mine account. FSD subscription appeared for about 3 days and disappeared last Thursday or Friday. FFS

 

[momo3605]

Nope.

It means Tesla is not obligated to make that statement true unless you buy FSD

You can't complain you didn't get fries with your burger unless you ordered a burger.

If you want to use this analogy, the equivalent analogy would be if a store has a sign outside that says
"All customers get free Fries"

And then you walk inside and they say You only get free Fries if you order a burger

 

[gearchruncher]

It means Tesla is not obligated to make that statement true unless you buy FSD

You can't complain you didn't get fries with your burger unless you ordered a burger.

Let me fix that for you:

"This burger comes with ketchup on the side as part of the standard price"
"Awesome, I would like to buy a burger!"
......
"Where is my ketchup?"
"You didn't order fries, it doesn't matter that you didn't get ketchup. You can order fries whenever you want, then you get ketchup"
"But I the ketchup tastes good on it's own"
"Sorry, it was clear that you only get ketchup if you order fries."
"Why did that guy get ketchup but he didn't order fries?"
"That guy ordered a burger after you. New burgers DO come with ketchup"

"Fine. I would like some fries"
"Sorry, you need ketchup to order fries. Ketchup is $1."
"But you said fries came with ketchup."
"You ordered the small fries, the deal for ketchup was only with large fries, that was clear from the beginning. Small fries are a totally different product that fries."

 

[Knightshade]

If you want to use this analogy, the equivalent analogy would be if a store has a sign outside that says
"All customers get free Fries"

It wouldn't.... but even going with that- all FSD buyers get free hardware.

If you don't buy FSD, your cars ability to run FSD is irrelevant, so they have no need to give you free hardware.



I dunno how this is confusing to anybody.

Imagine this in court:


YOUR HONOR THEY PROMISED MY CAR COULD RUN THE FSD PACKAGE THEY SELL!

Ok... did you buy the FSD package and find you can't run it?

NO! WHY WOULD THAT MATTER?!

Case dismissed for lack of standing.