MASTER THREAD: FSD Subscription Available 16 Jul 2021

[Knightshade]

You know what Tesla told me? Somewhere between Jack and $hit.

This is simply not true.

The info is explicitly listed on the page you purchase FSD from

If you didn't read it- that's on you.

(it's also in the manual for the car, and in the various things you have to agree to to activate it IN the car after purchase, and appears every time you turn it on during driving too).

If I sell you software named "protect your baby"

Again- the name of a product does not have to literally be 100% accurate describing the product.

Diaper Genies do not grant wishes.

Southwest airlines flies in all directions.

Happy Meals do not inherently improve peoples moods.

Radio Flyers neither receive radio NOR fly.

I researched the cars myself, not many people I know (other than myself) read the owners manual cover to cover before receiving their car... If I had NOT researched the car, and having English as my native language I would have thought that Tesla had Full Self Driving as a $10,000 option in its cars!

Wait... so you claim Tesla didn't give you the info.

Then admit since you read the manual they did give you the info

Man-- even YOU don't agree with you!

I am still surprised that Tesla keeps raising the price of the FSD package. I do think once more competition shows up, GM Super Cruise becomes available in more models next year Tesla will be forced to reconsider the FSD pricing model.

To go from a GM vehicle without supercruise to the same model WITH it is a $15,000-$25,000 upcharge.

And it's less capable, and works fewer places, than Teslas system.

So 10k from Tesla seems pretty cheap.

Many of the reviews of Super Cruise say it performs better than AutoPilot even if it is geo-fenced since the majority of roads have been mapped now.

Neither claim here is accurate.

The vast majority of all roads have NOT been mapped. Just the vast majority of interstates.

Further- even your own MT link says Teslas system works better overall, and offers far more features.

As with the CR rankings, Teslas system is functionally better

The reason people keep ranking Supercrise as "better" is the driven monitoring system because they think it's "safer"

But of course Tesla recently began using the internal cameras for this too- so even that "advantage" is largely gone.

 

[raptor5244]

To go from a GM vehicle without supercruise to the same model WITH it is a $15,000-$25,000 upcharge.

And it's less capable, and works fewer places, than Teslas system.

So 10k from Tesla seems pretty cheap.

My point is that is all changing soon as more competition appears. GM has Super Cruise planned for 6 more vehicles in 2022 and 22 vehicle models planned moving forward. I think the argument here is that other manufactures are capable of building very good autonomous systems. Currently GM Super Cruise comes with the vehicle for 3 years and then is only $25 per month or $15 per month when bundled OnStar stuff. The new Cadillac LYRIQ should be a very nice SUV for similar money as a Model Y.

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[Knightshade]

My point is that is all changing soon as more competition appears. GM has Super Cruise planned for 6 more vehicles in 2022 and 22 vehicle models planned moving forward. I think the argument here is that other manufactures are capable of building very good autonomous systems. Currently GM Super Cruise comes with the vehicle for 3 years and then is only $25 per month or $15 per month when bundled OnStar stuff. The new Cadillac LYRIQ should be a very nice SUV for similar money as a Model Y.

Again the cost is MUCH higher than you suggest. MANY THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS higher.

Because you have to buy more expensive trims to be able to get it, and usually add option packages on top of that.

For example on the CT6, supercruise itself is a $6000 package.

But it ALSO requires the comfort and tech package, the active chasis package, the 20" wheels AND perforated seats for SOME REASON, and a bunch more options.

Adding it costs $11,700 net.

So it costs MORE than FSD, does FAR LESS, on FEWER ROADS.
AND it'll have a monthly cost after 3 years ON TOP.

How's that "competition"?

QUICK EDIT--- My bad- that's actually on a 2019.

It gets WORSE for 2020.

You can no longer even add it to the base model.

You have to move up to the next trim level, which adds $15,500 to the price, but "includes" Supercruise standard. But you'll still need to keep paying for it after 3 years on TOP of that.


But wait you say- what about the OTHER models it's available on now?

2021 Escalade you say? Look, base model- NOT AVAILABLE.

It IS available (but not standard) on the next trim up... which adds $7000 to the vehicle price BEFORE you add supercruise.

Then you ALSO need to add Supercruise AND several other "required" packages- which bump the price ANOTHER $8850.

For a net price bump of $15,850. And still have a monthly fee after 3 years.


Tell me again how $10,000 all-in for FSD is overpriced compared to the "competition"?

 

[raptor5244]

Again the cost is MUCH higher than you suggest. MANY THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS higher.

Because you have to buy more expensive trims to be able to get it, and usually add option packages on top of that.

For example on the CT6, supercruise itself is a $6000 package.

But it ALSO requires the comfort and tech package, the active chasis package, the 20" wheels AND perforated seats for SOME REASON, and a bunch more options.

Adding it costs $11,700 net.

So it costs MORE than FSD, does FAR LESS, on FEWER ROADS.
AND it'll have a monthly cost after 3 years ON TOP.

How's that "competition"?

View attachment 688685


QUICK EDIT--- My bad- that's actually on a 2019.

It gets WORSE for 2020.

You can no longer even add it to the base model.

You have to move up to the next trim level, which adds $15,500 to the price, but "includes" Supercruise standard. But you'll still need to keep paying for it after 3 years on TOP of that.

I hear you but what I am suggesting is that will begin to change soon as the system works its way downstream into lower models as these features become more commonplace. I am still surprised Tesla kept increasing the price of FSD when it is no better than it was when it cost $5k.

 

[raptor5244]

And it's less capable, and works fewer places, than Teslas system.

But the unbiased real world reviews do not seem to support this claim. The reality is that this feature will be used on highways that are already mapped and you don't have to deal with the constant nagging.

 

[raptor5244]

But wait you say- what about the OTHER models it's available on now?

2021 Escalade you say? Look, base model- NOT AVAILABLE.

It IS available (but not standard) on the next trim up... which adds $7000 to the vehicle price BEFORE you add supercruise.

Then you ALSO need to add Supercruise AND several other "required" packages- which bump the price ANOTHER $8850.

For a net price bump of $15,850. And still have a monthly fee after 3 years.


Tell me again how $10,000 all-in for FSD is overpriced compared to the "competition"?

Again, as I stated, more models coming soon and keep in mind that you are also adding other content when you list the required packages. I mean you listed a package that adds Magnetic Ride suspension, wheels/tire package, 34 speaker sound system, rear view mirror camera, ventilated seats, active rear steering, etc. At least those items will have some residual value...

Site Maintenance

 

[Knightshade]

Again, as I stated, more models coming soon and keep in mind that you are also adding other content when you list the required packages.

But I only wanted supercruise.

In fact, I explicitly do NOT want to sub 20" wheels for 19s- that's a DOWNGRADE to me.

And it's gonna cost me over $15,000.... PLUS 25 bucks a month after 3 years- PLUS options I actively dislike- to get it.


So yeah, $10,000 and I can get it on ANY trim is looking pretty good.... and Supercruise, doing less and costing more and forcing me into trims I don't even want provides zero pressure against that pricing.


But that's legacys problem- not Teslas.

 

[Knightshade]

But the unbiased real world reviews do not seem to support this claim.

Uh...yes, they do.

Consumer reports rated Teslas system superior in every functional way- with Cadillac only "winning" because of crap like "driver engagement".

Cadillac's Super Cruise Outperforms Other Driving Assistance Systems - Consumer Reports

In this review of driving assistance systems from a range of automakers, Consumer Reports says Cadillac's Super Cruise outperforms other car companies' systems.

www.consumerreports.org

"capabilities and performance" score-- Tesla beat everyone else

"ease of use" score -- Tesla beat everyone else






Your OWN source (motortrend) likewise admitted Teslas system is functionally superior in most regards-

Super Cruise usage is restricted to those freeways and highways the company has mapped with high-precision GPS and cameras.... Tesla's Autopilot, by contrast, can be activated at any time on any road

And on lane changing-

If traffic in the other lane is holding steady, Super Cruise will speed up or slow down as needed to move safely into the gap and keep its distance from cars in the lane you're leaving and the lane you're entering.

Here, Tesla has a distinct advantage.

and

Autopilot will also merge onto off-ramps and flyover ramps if you engage Navigate on Autopilot and enter a destination. Super Cruise deliberately refuses to merge onto off-ramps and directs the human driver to take over and make the lane change and exit the highway

and

All the above considered, Cadillac's Super Cruise may not yet be able to match all the functions of Tesla's

The one place they highlight the "big" advantage for Supercuise?


Driver monitoring.

But again- this is a 6 month old story.

Tesla has seen ADDED in-cabin driver monitoring- so even that one "advantage" is gone.

 

[raptor5244]

Uh...yes, they do.

Consumer reports rated Teslas system superior in every functional way- with Cadillac only "winning" because of crap like "driver engagement".

Cadillac's Super Cruise Outperforms Other Driving Assistance Systems - Consumer Reports

In this review of driving assistance systems from a range of automakers, Consumer Reports says Cadillac's Super Cruise outperforms other car companies' systems.

www.consumerreports.org

"capabilities and performance" score-- Tesla beat everyone else

"ease of use" score -- Tesla beat everyone else






Your OWN source (motortrend) likewise admitted Teslas system is functionally superior in most regards-



And on lane changing-



and



and




The one place they highlight the "big" advantage for Supercuise?


Driver monitoring.

But again- this is a 6 month old story.

Tesla has seen ADDED in-cabin driver monitoring- so even that one "advantage" is gone.

Dude, I am a Tesla fan like you but I am openminded. I am just pointing out that more competition is coming, which will have an impact on pricing at some point. I am betting the cost of AI continues to drop, not increase. I think folks are starting to realize that anything less than L5 autonomy means you are an AI babysitter and you get to pay $10k with no option to transfer the software as you wait a decade or longer for this to come to fruition.

At least with FSD subscription you can turn the faucet on or off depending on whether you see value. That is a distinct advantage that Tesla has over the competition and will probably force the competition to follow suit at some point.

 

[Knightshade]

Dude, I am a Tesla fan like you but I am openminded. I am just pointing out that more competition is coming

I've been hearing THE COMPETITION IS COMING regarding the cars themselves for almost 10 years now.

It's still not coming.

The "competition" has mostly been press releases, garbage compliance cars, and a very few "decent but 10 years behind Tesla" offerings.

, which will have an impact on pricing at some point.

This is simply not true as long as the "competition" is:

MORE expensive
and
Functionally inferior.

Which so far- it is.

Just like the "competition" from cars. Tesla has been RAISING prices in this environment and if you saw the Q2 numbers yesterday- doing pretty well doing that.


REAL competition- something as good or better AND as cheap or cheaper- might well compel Tesla to lower pricing. But nobody's really providing any yet.

 

[CapeOne]

I hear you but what I am suggesting is that will begin to change soon as the system works its way downstream into lower models as these features become more commonplace. I am still surprised Tesla kept increasing the price of FSD when it is no better than it was when it cost $5k.

Just as more competition in the EV market will be good for consumers, more competition in the semi-autonomous/autonomous vehicle market will be good for consumers as well. At least for those interested in that technology. Not everyone is.

You can now get a "Super Cruise" option package on the 2022 Chevrolet Bolt EUV Premier for $2,200, bringing the total MSRP of the car to $40,695.

 

[Knightshade]

Just as more competition in the EV market will be good for consumers, more competition in the semi-autonomous/autonomous vehicle market will be good for consumers as well. At least for those interested in that technology. Not everyone is.

You can now get a "Super Cruise" option package on the 2022 Chevrolet Bolt EUV Premier for $2,200, bringing the total MSRP of the car to $40,695.

Of course it's $4500 above the base model just to get a Premier in the first place.

So $6700 total cost... plus the monthly cost after 3 years.... Still, that IS better than what Caddy hits you up for.

But... wait... it turns out this is NOT the NEW AND IMPROVED SUPERCRUISE that Caddy is selling.

Chevrolet Bolt EUV News and Reviews | Motor1.com

Get the latest on new Chevrolet Bolt EUV models including first drives, in-depth reviews, concept car photos, new features, recalls and more.

www.motor1.com

This the old, crappy, doesn't even change lanes one.


So... it's $6700 net cost plus an eventual monthly fee..... for.... BASIC autopilot that Teslas come with free- but the Chevy version works on far fewer roads?

Yeah... "competition"

 

[Fourdoor]

This is simply not true.

The info is explicitly listed on the page you purchase FSD from

If you didn't read it- that's on you.

(it's also in the manual for the car, and in the various things you have to agree to to activate it IN the car after purchase, and appears every time you turn it on during driving too).






Again- the name of a product does not have to literally be 100% accurate describing the product.

Diaper Genies do not grant wishes.

Southwest airlines flies in all directions.

Happy Meals do not inherently improve peoples moods.

Radio Flyers neither receive radio NOR fly.




Wait... so you claim Tesla didn't give you the info.

Then admit since you read the manual they did give you the info

Man-- even YOU don't agree with you!






To go from a GM vehicle without supercruise to the same model WITH it is a $15,000-$25,000 upcharge.

And it's less capable, and works fewer places, than Teslas system.

So 10k from Tesla seems pretty cheap.




Neither claim here is accurate.

The vast majority of all roads have NOT been mapped. Just the vast majority of interstates.

Further- even your own MT link says Teslas system works better overall, and offers far more features.

As with the CR rankings, Teslas system is functionally better

The reason people keep ranking Supercrise as "better" is the driven monitoring system because they think it's "safer"

But of course Tesla recently began using the internal cameras for this too- so even that "advantage" is largely gone.

Oh, so you are the only human being on the planet that read the ULA for all the software you own. Congratulations on being an aberration.

You and Elon need to stop partying it up, it is clouding your vision. Tesla isn't even the leader in the club house when it comes to SAE level 2 driving.

Also, what's with the bitching and moaning about geofencing? Since you are so gung ho on reading the rules of AP and FSD, it only works on limited access highways, just like SuperCruise and Fords Autonomous systems... they just don't geofence it because they expect you to break the rules, and gather data on you while you are doing so.

With Fords version of autonomous systems (not yet fully implemented, a near future upgrade with a time frame) you get hands free driving on limited access highways that have been mapped. Currently you have full lane centering and adaptive cruise with your hands on the wheel in all areas mapped or not mapped. So, currently you have all the capabilities of Tesla's FSD, and in the near future you will have hands free due to implementation of the IR camera based driver monitoring.

With Supercruise you get hands free on limited access highways. I know that on all roads adaptive cruise control is available. I am not 100% sure, but I think that everywhere else you get lane centering with your hands on the wheel just like the Ford system. I do know for a fact that it costs $2,200 on the Bolt EUV, not $15,000 to $25,000

Do a bit of research on the competition... stop with the FUD!

Keith

 

[Knightshade]

Tesla isn't even the leader in the club house when it comes to SAE level 2 driving.

On what do you base that conclusion?

With Fords version of autonomous systems (not yet fully implemented, a near future upgrade with a time frame) you get hands free driving on limited access highways that have been mapped.

LOL

If it's not released it's not the "leader" of anything.

Currently you have full lane centering and adaptive cruise with your hands on the wheel in all areas mapped or not mapped. So, currently you have all the capabilities of Tesla's FSD

This is outright false.

You have all the capabilities, per your description, of basic autopilot

Which is free on Teslas.

It has none of the 6 more advanced features FSD offers today.

With Supercruise you get hands free on limited access highways. I know that on all roads adaptive cruise control is available. I am not 100% sure, but I think that everywhere else you get lane centering and with your hands on the wheel just like the Ford system.

Nope.

Supercruise does not work- at all- outside of mapped roads.

And again lacks a bunch of features FSD offers.

I do know for a fact that it costs $2,200 on the Bolt EUV, not $15,000 to $25,000

You are mixed up here.

You can get the OLD version of it on the Bolt EUV.

Which does nothing that basic AP does not do for free.

And it's $6700 net cost, as explained in the post directly above yours.

Do a bit of research on the competition... stop with the FUD!

As the above debunking of almost every claim you made shows- you might want to take your own advice

 

[Gor-Gor]

@Knightshade

 

[CapeOne]

Of course it's $4500 above the base model just to get a Premier in the first place.

Tesla does similar by now requiring new car customers to buy FSD for thousands more to get EAP. It used to be that you could get EAP for one price and FSD for an additional price but now you have to step up and buy both if you want either. Whether it be through option packages, trim level requirements, or whatever, it's what goes on in the industry when it comes to marketing options/features.

As I said, more competition in the semi-autonomous/autonomous vehicle market will be good for consumers interested in that technology. Some don't care at all about Super Cruise, FSD, etc. Some will be quite happy with the Super Cruise option, some will be happy with AP, some will want EAP (although Tesla forces you to buy FSD to get EAP on new cars, darn it), and others will want the full FSD experience, etc.

 

[Gor-Gor]

Tesla does similar by now requiring new car customers to buy FSD for thousands more to get EAP. It used to be that you could get EAP for one price and FSD for an additional price but now you have to step up and buy both if you want either. Whether it be through option packages, trim level requirements, or whatever, it's what goes on in the industry when it comes to marketing options/features.

As I said, more competition in the semi-autonomous/autonomous vehicle market will be good for consumers interested in that technology. Some don't care at all about Super Cruise, FSD, etc. Some will be quite happy with the Super Cruise option, some will be happy with AP, some will want EAP (although Tesla forces you to buy FSD to get EAP on new cars, darn it), and others will want the full FSD experience. Interesting times ahead!

Never thought of it this way before, but unless Tesla sells EAP standalone again you are right. That's a $6k markup if you simply want EAP, which is all I really feel I need right now.

 

[Fourdoor]

But I only wanted supercruise.

In fact, I explicitly do NOT want to sub 20" wheels for 19s- that's a DOWNGRADE to me.

And it's gonna cost me over $15,000.... PLUS 25 bucks a month after 3 years- PLUS options I actively dislike- to get it.


So yeah, $10,000 and I can get it on ANY trim is looking pretty good.... and Supercruise, doing less and costing more and forcing me into trims I don't even want provides zero pressure against that pricing.


But that's legacys problem- not Teslas.

I only wanted the 980 rear motor, but in order to get that I had to have 21" wheels, lowered suspension, performance brakes, painted calipers, performance summer only tires, etc... what is your point?

Keith

 

[Knightshade]

Tesla does similar by now requiring new car customers to buy FSD for thousands more to get EAP

Uh.... what?

EAP went away in the US market almost 2.5 years ago.

Your analogy is nonsensical.

You get AP free with every new Tesla. Which is functionally equivalent to the $6700 plus monthly payment version of Supercruise on the Bolt EUV.


You can ALSO get FSD. Which does vastly more things that Supercruise can't do- in either version of SC.

And you can get it for 10k on ANY new tesla- even the BASE MODEL.

You can't get Supercruise on the base model of any GM vehicle. You have to pay thousands to move up trim- then thousands MORE to add Supercruise.

On the 2 models cited that can get the "better but still does way less than FSD" version of supercruise it was north of $15,000 to get it added if you only wanted a base vehicle to start with.

It used to be that you could get EAP for one price and FSD for an additional price but now you have to step up and buy both if you want either.

This again is...not quite accurate.

It used to be you got NO AP FEATURES AT ALL with the car.

And could pay $5000 for EAP. And another $3000 for FSD.

In March 2019 that changed.

Now you get basic AP (which GM charges thousands for and isn't even AVAILABLE on basic trim models) for free on every trim of every tesla

That's much better than GMs offering.

And you can pay 10k for FSD. Again for any trim. Which does more than the ADVANCED version of SC, and costs THOUSANDS LESS TO GET on a base trim car compare to GM.


So again it's much better than GMs offering.

As I said, more competition in the semi-autonomous/autonomous vehicle market will be good for consumers interested in that technology.

It will.

But so far it wasn't really shown up--- except in inferior or overpriced offerings from legacy car companies.

 

[Knightshade]

I only wanted the 980 rear motor, but in order to get that I had to have 21" wheels, lowered suspension, performance brakes, painted calipers, performance summer only tires, etc... what is your point?

Keith

Weird, I have a 980 but didn't get any of those things


Seriously though, my point is doing that sucks.

That's why it's nice Tesla will give you AP free on all cars (comparable to basic supercruise that costs thousands on the bolt and isn't even AVAILABLE on cheaper trims).

And will let you buy FSD BY ITSELF on ANY new trim/model too- while GM restricts the "better" supercruise to expensive models and only the higher trim versions- making their inferior product cost WAY over 10k that Tesla asks for FSD.