The fanboyism is strong in here. You think it's okay to just keep selling the same car forever with no improvements?
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Model 3 Highland Performance/Plaid Speculation [Car announced 04.23.2024]
- Thread starter Daniel L
- Start date
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Not sure why you think that changes my reply?
The car you were talking about specifically outsells all the cars you seem to insist people would rather buy. Their actually buying says otherwise.
If people keep buying them- in greater numbers than others car- why would it NOT be ok?
Change for change sake makes no sense.
As I mention- much of the changes on Highland are specifically for production and manufacturing reasons (cheaper and easier to produce, less parts, etc) not out of some feeling they need to "keep up" with german cars that they already vastly outsell.
You can slap 275's on the rear of a Model 3 today with no issue, and the MYP already runs 275's in the back.
Not sure why Tesla would do this though. The M3P is 50/50 weight distribution, and is not traction limited in a straight line right now. This would just make the car understeer with little other benefit. Anyone that cares about corners runs a square setup, and you can get to 295's if you want. The real issue here is the front, where the design of the upright and the complete lack of camber limit your tire sizes.
Plus, you've noticed how Tesla's big increase is 8% more range via less aero drag? It's super unlikely they're going to crush the range of the M3P with wide stock tires.
The Plaid only runs 285's in the rear for a car that weighs 1000 lbs more and has >2X the HP on the rear axle.
This whole conversation is interesting in what people actually care about. If you track an M3P today, you know that the biggest issue with the car is the lack of camber up front and ability to adjust it. Real high performance cars both come with camber, and have a way to adjust. The C8 corvette can hit 5 degrees with stock adjusters. The shocks and chassis tuning on the car isn't great for cornering either, and the brakes are only OK for the power the car has. They could make this car a lot quicker on a track without any drivetrain changes, and if they did make a drivetrain change, the first thing the car needs is a limited slip differential. The LSD would make a huge difference in normal driving too, as trying to put down the power in a low speed turn clearly leads to the car limiting your power.
Slapping more HP on the car doesn't fix this. It makes it worse. Wide rear tires make it worse too.
If all you're into is straight line stuff, that's awesome, and 0-60 and quarter mile times are one thing. But half the people in this thread are complaining how the M3P "won't sell in their current form because they lag behind the competition in every category short of 0 to 60 - ICE or EV." It takes a lot more than some more power to make this chassis super interesting to people buying cars with amazing suspensions, trick differentials, CCB brakes, carbon fiber seats, and the endurance to go all day at a track. Tesla will already sell you a quarter mile monster for less than anyone else by a huge margin, so what exactly are they afraid of?
Meanwhile, as @Knightshade points out, there's' a very good chance the primary changes in Highland are about cost reduction for Tesla, which would absolutely increase there dominance in the EV space and up their stock price, which is all Tesla really cares about. BMW M, Mercedes AMG, Hyundai N, Subaru STi- these are all divisions run by people that live and breathe racing cars. I'm not sure any of those people exist at Tesla right now.
We do all remember that the M3P came with different shocks and springs originally that Tesla than removed because it saved money and M3P buyers wanted a cushier ride, right? Yeah, that's where the money is, not hardcore race cars that make Journalists drool but keep accountants and logistics managers up at night.
This isn't an ethics discussion. Of course it's "okay."
This is an economics discussion. The real question is- "Will Tesla's stock price a year from now be higher if they come out with a M3P with higher performance vs keeping the current performance?" In analyzing that, you cannot ignore the R&D cost of a higher performance variant as well as the production complexity.
Look, we have the docs. Tesla's gonna release a car with 50 more HP on the rear axle, and the rest of the car will be identical to the other Highland. 0-60 will fall by 0.2 seconds, and they will be able to advertise the M3P as a 2,9 second car (with rollout) which they can now do without cannibalizing since the Plaid is "1,99*". They won't handle better than the base car, have better suspension, or massive tires. They will sell a bunch of these, and shareholders will be happy.
No, the real fanbois are the ones that think Tesla cares about high end, all around performance cars and are about to drop one in the form of a M3P despite zero evidence.
Why is the real question tied to Teslas stock. That has nothing to do with anything. I'm a car enthusiast. I care about fun cars. I owned an M3P. Fun car. Good value. But it lags way behind the competition other than straight line zero to 60. The interior is garbage. The stock suspension is terrible. Power drops like a rock at 65 mph. If Tesla keeps the m3P the same it's DOA. This is from a car enthusiast not a stockholder. I agree that Tesla may not care about the high end. Then they should just kill the Performance variant because it's already dead.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Because Tesla is a public company whose responsibility is to its shareholders.
It has everything to do with everything.
That's great.
That has nothing to do with Teslas business decisions however. They're not a fan club or a niche vendor.
I mean, it continues to VASTLY outsell all the cars you insist it's "far behind" so from an Econ 101 perspective it's the exact opposite of dead.
"Tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny segment of market won't buy a car we're selling insanely high numbers of already" is not a business reason to make significant changes to the product to cater to that tiny tiny tiny segment of the market.
Do you? Because your hyperbolic "doa" and nobody will buy them statements suggests you don't understand this at all let alone agree with it.
Why would they do that? They have willing buyers who will pay thousands of extra dollars for what amounts to bigger wheels and a software unlock.
Why kill that? Makes 0 economic sense.
At least unlike many other "sport" trims it does add actual measurable performance to the vehicle rather than just some badges and a wing.
Well, given we are here because they have announced the other variants but not the performance, maybe you will get your wish.
Because we live in a capitalist society, and as a public company Tesla's #1 goal is to maximize profits, not make car enthusiasts happy. Have you missed the last 5 years where the CEO of Tesla has become the richest person on the planet off the back of Tesla stock and how his compensation is 100% tied to stock price?
It appears from your post history that you own an RS3 and are considering an S/X. Why do you think the M3P is sold to you at all?
I'm pretty sure we already know there will be a new upgraded model 3 performance and I strongly suspect it will in fact include performance upgrades from the existing model. Why don't we just wait and see what happens. What I can tell you is the existing model 3 performance with no upgrades is absolutely dead. It's not a compelling vehicle in its current for
As quoted above, the m3P was designed to be an M3 killer and it largely succeeded. When it was originally released it was expensive and closer in price to a real M3. It was a halo car of sorts and halo cars being recognition to the brand. It's not 2019 anymore and the cars the M3P were designed to compete with have improved. If Tesla cars about this segment they will have to up there game. I personally hope they do.
Gauss Guzzler
Safety Score = 42
No, not all of us remember that. You're claiming that they once came with more expensive shocks? Meaning magnetic and/or adjustable? And the springs were more expensive too? Meaning that it had adjustable air springs?
I do recall them spending money to make slight tweaks to the spring rates and Bilstein shims. Is that what you're referring to?
Tesla stopped advertising lowered suspension for the M3P about two years ago. This likely was just a spring and shock valving change, but it does show that Tesla didn't consider the extra performance from lowered ride height something their "performance" buyers wanted. My comment about "saving money" is that any additional part variation on a manufacturing line costs money.
My point here is that many people are saying Tesla has to make the car even better to compete because it's irrelevant against ICE competition, but Tesla has actually been reducing the difference between the performance model and the LR model over the last few years, while simultaneously massively increasing sales volume. And 99% of performance buyers are probably happy with that because all they ever cared about was 0-60 times and any kind of firmer ride was a downside, even if it did improve handling.
Misconception. The part numbers are still different to this day. The reason they stopped advertising the different ride height is because the 10mm drop was never factually accurate.
I do tend to agree that the M3P is not a serious effort as far as “sports cars” go. Not is the plaid for that matter with it sharing suspension and brakes with the standard model.
For those that keep mentioning that a M3P accelerates slowly above 60mph - have any of you actually driven one of the latest M3Ps?
Recent cars (including mine built last year in Shanghai) now have the same more powerful rear motor as the MYP.
This means that my car accelerates strongly well past 60mph and is also amazing at 30-50, 30-70 time.
Most reviews slating the mid and top range performance are from early build cars - and we all know Tesla make running changes to car specifications constantly.
I would love to see a thorough performance review between an early M3P and a current build one - as I suspect the performance differences would be eye opening.
This guy seems to have a recent build M3P and he does very well drag racing it against a range of old & new performance cars.
Recent cars (including mine built last year in Shanghai) now have the same more powerful rear motor as the MYP.
This means that my car accelerates strongly well past 60mph and is also amazing at 30-50, 30-70 time.
Most reviews slating the mid and top range performance are from early build cars - and we all know Tesla make running changes to car specifications constantly.
I would love to see a thorough performance review between an early M3P and a current build one - as I suspect the performance differences would be eye opening.
This guy seems to have a recent build M3P and he does very well drag racing it against a range of old & new performance cars.
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Knightshade
Well-Known Member
I would expect any significant difference in 30-50 or 50-70 to also show up in 0-60 or 1/4 mile times, and AFAIK.... they don't?
Tesla's EPC site lists 9 damper assembly part numbers to handle all the various car weights. Just because they still sell them doesn't mean they put them on brand new cars. How do you identify what VIN's a specific part applies to?
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
C&D noted differences even in the 2019 vs 2018 model, although unfortunately they didn't appear to test more modern versions.
Tested: 2018 Tesla Model 3 Performance Rules the Passing Lane
Dual electric motors give Tesla's quickest and most expensive sports sedan runs as hard as sports sedans such as the BMW M3.
www.caranddriver.com
Zero to 60 mph: 3.5 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 8.9 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 17.1 sec
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 3.7 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 1.4 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 2.0 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 12.1 sec @ 114 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 153 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 147 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.95 g
Tested: 2019 Tesla Model 3 Performance Hits 60 in 3.1 Seconds
Tesla's smallest sedan is amusing with more power and better handling.
www.caranddriver.com
60 mph: 3.1 sec
100 mph: 8.2 sec
1/4 mile: 11.6 sec @ 115 mph
130 mph: 16.2 sec
150 mph: 27.0 sec
Results above omit 1-ft rollout of 0.3 sec.
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 3.3 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 1.1 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 1.7 sec
Top speed (mfr's claim): 162 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 147 ft
Braking, 100–0 mph: 296 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.96 g
The numbers sound more like the over the air power bump the P got. I don't know when that actually happened, but the 0-60 numbers you posted agree with it.C&D noted differences even in the 2019 vs 2018 model, although unfortunately they didn't appear to test more modern versions.
C/D TEST RESULTSTested: 2018 Tesla Model 3 Performance Rules the Passing Lane
Dual electric motors give Tesla's quickest and most expensive sports sedan runs as hard as sports sedans such as the BMW M3.
Zero to 60 mph: 3.5 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 8.9 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 17.1 sec
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 3.7 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 1.4 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 2.0 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 12.1 sec @ 114 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 153 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 147 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.95 g
C/D TEST RESULTSTested: 2019 Tesla Model 3 Performance Hits 60 in 3.1 Seconds
Tesla's smallest sedan is amusing with more power and better handling.
60 mph: 3.1 sec
100 mph: 8.2 sec
1/4 mile: 11.6 sec @ 115 mph
130 mph: 16.2 sec
150 mph: 27.0 sec
Results above omit 1-ft rollout of 0.3 sec.
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 3.3 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 1.1 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 1.7 sec
Top speed (mfr's claim): 162 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 147 ft
Braking, 100–0 mph: 296 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.96 g
Check this table out.
It show’s that the newer M3P has a different, more powerful rear motor that it shares with the MYP.
Max power is now 393kw compared with original 377kw
Last thing to consider - is there a difference in perfomance between a Shanghai built M3P and a US built version?
Mine was built in September 2022, has a 2023 VIN plate and still has USS!
It show’s that the newer M3P has a different, more powerful rear motor that it shares with the MYP.
Max power is now 393kw compared with original 377kw
Last thing to consider - is there a difference in perfomance between a Shanghai built M3P and a US built version?
Mine was built in September 2022, has a 2023 VIN plate and still has USS!
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This is correct. I had a 2018 P3D before someone totaled it last summer. I took it to the quarter mile a few times. My best time in 2022 was 11.5@118 and it typically ran 11.6x after the OTA power bump. This is not to say that the later ones may not have been slightly faster than the early ones but the bulk of the improvement was from the OTA bump.
My 2018 P3D+ with the Performance package upgrade was also slightly lower than a standard model 3. I know this because I parked next to other cars to check. It wasn’t a huge drop, I always heard 10mm, but it was a drop.
It was a phenomenal car, as is my 2020 P3D-, as is the current 2023 P3D that you can get for net ~$45k after incentives. IMO the highland P3D would need more power, a real sports sedan suspension (preferably adjustable), and more aggressive styling specific to the performance model for me to even consider upgrading from my current car…
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
C&D noted differences even in the 2019 vs 2018 model, although unfortunately they didn't appear to test more modern versions.
C/D TEST RESULTSTested: 2018 Tesla Model 3 Performance Rules the Passing Lane
Dual electric motors give Tesla's quickest and most expensive sports sedan runs as hard as sports sedans such as the BMW M3.
Zero to 60 mph: 3.5 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 8.9 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 17.1 sec
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 3.7 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 1.4 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 2.0 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 12.1 sec @ 114 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 153 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 147 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.95 g
C/D TEST RESULTSTested: 2019 Tesla Model 3 Performance Hits 60 in 3.1 Seconds
Tesla's smallest sedan is amusing with more power and better handling.
60 mph: 3.1 sec
100 mph: 8.2 sec
1/4 mile: 11.6 sec @ 115 mph
130 mph: 16.2 sec
150 mph: 27.0 sec
Results above omit 1-ft rollout of 0.3 sec.
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 3.3 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 1.1 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 1.7 sec
Top speed (mfr's claim): 162 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 147 ft
Braking, 100–0 mph: 296 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.96 g
Yeah that's the software updates, not any physical change to the car. Other car mags retested 18s after and found the same #s your link for the 19 did... Or there's this:
Here's a chart I made after the last of these OTA updates comparing the various configs on 2018 cars using then-current draggy/users-from-here data plus the CANBUS power numbers from WUGZ on reddit.
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