Model 3 Highland Performance/Plaid Speculation [Car announced 04.23.2024]

[momo3605]

You keep saying this, but as I said previously, this could be Tesla wanting to make the car compatible with U tires in the future without having to go through a top speed change when they do ship with them. The lower top speed gives them more flexibility on future supply chain. It may also be that the U rating is for a winter or snow tire package that Tesla wants to sell as an option, which they can't do if the car can go too fast.

We've already seen reviews of the Highland with 18s...and the tires are rated to 149 or 168. We have also seen Model S tires that are ALSO rated to 149 or 168. Why should we accept a hypothetical that they are reducing speed for a FUTURE unreleased tire. They already sell winter tire options and those are also rated at 149mph - PIRELLI WINTER SOTTOZERO 3

Also see above, if every eco tire is already V or W rated, what sense would there be in creating a brand new extra bad tire for the highland. And again...we've already seen the Highland tires, so this is a mute point anyway

 

[momo3605]

Anyway, I think the topic of Highland RWD/LR top speed drop is irrelevant to the discussion of Performance. The performance will continue with a 155+ top speed. People buy Performance for the specs. Tesla will screw themselves if the next Performance ends up with a 125 speed limit too lol

 

[ashegam]

Can we get back on more relevant performance specs.

What do you think they will increase the reverse speed to? I'm hoping to at least 55 mph so merging onto highways becomes a bit safer.

 

[buckets0fun]

Can we get back on more relevant performance specs.

What do you think they will increase the reverse speed to? I'm hoping to at least 55 mph so merging onto highways becomes a bit safer.

120kph, limited because at 121kph the aero makes the car unstable. Causing you to put too much stress on the FDU.

/s/

 

[gearchruncher]

What do you think they will increase the reverse speed to?

If they can't beat the Rimac (171 MPH), it's just not a relevant performance EV, and Tesla shouldn't even bother to make a performance car. But I'm sure they will because Elon once said something, so no way it won't happen.

What I really want to know is if the M3P can tow a Porsche 911 faster down the quarter mile than the Porsche can do it itself*.

*Porsche 911 will have 3 cylinders deactivated, will be shifted by a small child that needs a nap, and 1/4 mile time will be measured at wherever the 911 finishes the 1-2 shift right before the clutch is released.

 

[OleJohnny]

If they can't beat the Rimac (171 MPH), it's just not a relevant performance EV, and Tesla shouldn't even bother to make a performance car. But I'm sure they will because Elon once said something, so no way it won't happen.

What I really want to know is if the M3P can tow a Porsche 911 faster down the quarter mile than the Porsche can do it itself*.

*Porsche 911 will have 3 cylinders deactivated, will be shifted by a small child that needs a nap, and 1/4 mile time will be measured at wherever the 911 finishes the 1-2 shift right before the clutch is released.

I was too far away from the screen, and without my glasses, and was about to make a joke about Elon lying, but your sarcasm already took this into account. Haha.

 

[Nabush]

Sport Auto Drove the Ioniq 5N and did 7min45 on the full lap with P-Zero Corsa. Would have been in the 7min 30's with extreme tires (CUP2R for example)

Absolutely no performance degradation during the lap, power stayed consistent the whole time. (Plaid in limp mode after 3.5min, same for a current 3P). Car is also able to do 0.6G in regen alone, so brakes are holding great (not like Tesla on stock setups...)

This powertrain on another platform (sedan/sport car) would be pretty insane.

I'm certain a 600HP Model 3 would do significantly better if it was able to maintain power during the entire lap, since it is a lot lighter. Issue is that Tesla is far from the competition as far as cooling, so not likely to happen with the highland IMO. I will not start again 400V vs 800v, but I have my strong opinion on that matter for performance EVs.

I hope Tesla will step up this time, pretty sure acceleration will be great, pretty sure cooling will be bad again and we end up again with a half lap setup...

 

[mpgxsvcd]

Sport Auto Drove the Ioniq 5N and did 7min45 on the full lap with P-Zero Corsa. Would have been in the 7min 30's with extreme tires (CUP2R for example)

Absolutely no performance degradation during the lap, power stayed consistent the whole time. (Plaid in limp mode after 3.5min, same for a current 3P). Car is also able to do 0.6G in regen alone, so brakes are holding great (not like Tesla on stock setups...)

This powertrain on another platform (sedan/sport car) would be pretty insane.

I'm certain a 600HP Model 3 would do significantly better if it was able to maintain power during the entire lap, since it is a lot lighter. Issue is that Tesla is far from the competition as far as cooling, so not likely to happen with the highland IMO. I will not start again 400V vs 800v, but I have my strong opinion on that matter for performance EVs.

I hope Tesla will step up this time, pretty sure acceleration will be great, pretty sure cooling will be bad again and we end up again with a half lap setup...

Crazy that it is that fast when it weighs close to 5,000 lbs. Tesla definitely has the capabilities of making a Model 3 that would be insanely quick and fast. It just depends on what price point they want to hit.

The Ionia 5N will probably be over $80k with markups when it finally comes out in the US.

 

[gearchruncher]

Crazy that it is that fast when it weighs close to 5,000 lbs.

Taycan is 5,100 lbs and ran a 7:08. Plaid is 4,800 lbs and ran a 7:25. Weight just isn't what it used to be with modern tires and EV acceleration.

I'm certain a 600HP Model 3 would do significantly better if it was able to maintain power during the entire lap, since it is a lot lighter. Issue is that Tesla is far from the competition as far as cooling, so not likely to happen with the highland IMO.

Sure, Plaid backs off from 1000HP, but does it dip below 600HP? One way to get thermals managed is to just not allow peak power, and there is a world of time between 7:45 and 7:39 (Plaid only gained 5 seconds going from MP4S to 200TW tires), so it's not like thermals are killing Tesla from setting times on equivalent weight cars that are better than the competition.

I'd love a 750HP peak Model 3 that backs of to 550HP if you flog it for a while more than a 600HP car that just holds that forever.

 

[GregD60]

Back in 2020, a Model 3 Performance with modified suspension, brakes, and wheels and tires, turned a 7:44 at the Nurburgring. It would take about $10k for similar mods today, so for $65k total, it would turn basically the same time as a $70k Ioniq N, plus it would weight about 1,000 pounds less. I know which I would prefer.

Modified Tesla Model 3 Almost Matches Porsche Taycan Nurburgring Time

It reportedly came within two seconds of matching the best time set in a Porsche Taycan Turbo S.

insideevs.com

 

[Nabush]

Back in 2020, a Model 3 Performance with modified suspension, brakes, and wheels and tires, turned a 7:44 at the Nurburgring. It would take about $10k for similar mods today, so for $65k total, it would turn basically the same time as a $70k Ioniq N, plus it would weight about 1,000 pounds less. I know which I would prefer.

Modified Tesla Model 3 Almost Matches Porsche Taycan Nurburgring Time

It reportedly came within two seconds of matching the best time set in a Porsche Taycan Turbo S.

insideevs.com

I believe this model 3 lap was a BTG time. You can add 20s for full lap vs BTG...

 

[AAKEE]

What does voltage have to do with track performance?

The current model 3/Y P looaes power when the state of charge reduces, as the motors are built to deliver full power with a 400V system, they maybe need 350V during load to deliver full power.

But batteries loose voltage as the SOC reduces so the power reduces progressive from ~80% and down.

The solution for a real Performance car is to have this issue built away.
Having a higher battery voltage, so the voltage at low SOC and high load still is sufficient for the motors to deliver full power is the solution.

The Plaid have this, 461V at full charge mesns the power stays there down to 20% with a heated battery.
It is made by using 110cells in series instead of 96.
If the plan is to really make a Performance car, this is one of the ways to go.

 

[GregD60]

I believe this model 3 lap was a BTG time. You can add 20s for full lap vs BTG...

The article says, "And this time was apparently achieved on a damp track that had plenty of other cars on it." Perhaps it would have been 20s faster without those impediments.

The main point I was trying to make is that it really shouldn't take much at all for the Highland variant of a M3P be faster than the Ioniq N, and likely at a lower price.

 

[BigNick]

Sport Auto Drove the Ioniq 5N and did 7min45 on the full lap with P-Zero Corsa. Would have been in the 7min 30's with extreme tires (CUP2R for example)

Absolutely no performance degradation during the lap, power stayed consistent the whole time. (Plaid in limp mode after 3.5min, same for a current 3P). Car is also able to do 0.6G in regen alone, so brakes are holding great (not like Tesla on stock setups...)

This powertrain on another platform (sedan/sport car) would be pretty insane.

I'm certain a 600HP Model 3 would do significantly better if it was able to maintain power during the entire lap, since it is a lot lighter. Issue is that Tesla is far from the competition as far as cooling, so not likely to happen with the highland IMO. I will not start again 400V vs 800v, but I have my strong opinion on that matter for performance EVs.

I hope Tesla will step up this time, pretty sure acceleration will be great, pretty sure cooling will be bad again and we end up again with a half lap setup...

Maybe an Ioniq 6N is in the works?

 

[terranx]

Crazy that it is that fast when it weighs close to 5,000 lbs. Tesla definitely has the capabilities of making a Model 3 that would be insanely quick and fast. It just depends on what price point they want to hit.

The Ionia 5N will probably be over $80k with markups when it finally comes out in the US.

I know he’s retired now, but Hyundai having Albert Biermann for a few years probably helped. Man was a savant when it came to suspension and chassis tuning.

 

[Gasaraki]

Can we get back on more relevant performance specs.

What do you think they will increase the reverse speed to? I'm hoping to at least 55 mph so merging onto highways becomes a bit safer.

What the limit for reversing speed now?

 

[Sweed269]

The current model 3/Y P looaes power when the state of charge reduces, as the motors are built to deliver full power with a 400V system, they maybe need 350V during load to deliver full power.

But batteries loose voltage as the SOC reduces so the power reduces progressive from ~80% and down.

The solution for a real Performance car is to have this issue built away.
Having a higher battery voltage, so the voltage at low SOC and high load still is sufficient for the motors to deliver full power is the solution.

The Plaid have this, 461V at full charge mesns the power stays there down to 20% with a heated battery.
It is made by using 110cells in series instead of 96.
If the plan is to really make a Performance car, this is one of the ways to go.

That not how it works.
The voltage will always drop the same percentage regardless of where you start. You need a controller that can take the increased amperage at the lower voltage to compensate for the percentage drop.

Basically, every EV will loose power unless you limit its true max to a set value it can maintain at minimum.

The 3P was never designed as a sports car and has no artificial limits on top end power. It follows the voltage curve drop off at max amps.

If you oversize the controller and cooling you can optimize (limit) the bottleneck of the battery output.

Batteries that store more energy have less power output. Do you want more power or more range. I feel they have a good balance.

Now Porsche or any other sports car needs a bigger battery that focuses on power.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

The 3P was never designed as a sports car and has no artificial limits on top end power. It follows the voltage curve drop off at max amps.

But the Voltage increases gradually after it hits max current. Current is what decreases after the max. Voltage from the battery increases slightly.

 

[gearchruncher]

The solution for a real Performance car is to have this issue built away.
Having a higher battery voltage, so the voltage at low SOC and high load still is sufficient for the motors to deliver full power is the solution.

The Plaid have this, 461V at full charge mesns the power stays there down to 20% with a heated battery.
It is made by using 110cells in series instead of 96.
If the plan is to really make a Performance car, this is one of the ways to go.

We went through all of this about 30 pages ago, and this is much more complicated than this.

Ask yourself- as humans, we know how to build a 1V motor, a 10V motor, a 100V motor, and a 1000V motor. So there is nothing special about the Model 3's 320V motor. If there were no trade offs, why didn't Tesla just build a 280V motor if they had a battery that was 288V when at 0% SoC? Why is the only solution a higher voltage battery?

Or, if there were no tradeoffs, why did the original Model 3 engineers arrange the 4,416 cells in a 96s configuration, instead of a 110s like the Model S?

And then if voltage was the only question, think about the performance we could be getting out of the 800V cars. Or I guess the motors would instantly fail because they are all 320V motors and we don't know how to build otherwise?

The Plaid achieves it's feat of not degrading over discharge not simply because of higher initial battery voltage. It uses a different magnetic laminate design internal to the motor as well as carbon overwrapping to minimize the rotor-stator gap, which lowers the back EMF of the motor. This is primarily there for one reason- which is so it can maintain flat power up to about 18,000 RPM. Previous designs fall off in power as the RPM increases because the back EMF means that the voltage differential between the motor and batteries fall as RPM builds, and this causes the current to decrease, leading to an overall power decrease.

But this flat rating means something else- the Plaid's motor is also just less sensitive to voltage, so it doesn't care that much as SoC decreases either. In a lot of ways there isn't a difference between 20% SoC and 50% RPM because they both represent a change in voltage differential.

Also, there's a good chance the Plaid motor is underrated and limited in software. If you make a 500HP motor (remember, 3 of them), and then limit it to 350HP in software, the car can handle a lot of voltage drop without running into a physical limit. But oversizing motors is not free, and you can't just do it on high volume cars for fun.

 

[gearchruncher]

The voltage will always drop the same percentage regardless of where you start. You need a controller that can take the increased amperage at the lower voltage to compensate for the percentage drop.

Controllers cannot make up for the inherent back EMF in a motor, and the Plaid uses the identical controller as a Model 3 yet achieves a much flatter power output vs voltage because the magnetic machine is different.

And this has nothing to do with "battery size"- The Model 3 today already draws peak power from the battery at about 45 MPH, and falls off after that, and there's no reason that the battery cares how fast the car is going, so it could do that 45 MPH power all the way to 150.

Also, Plaid has more range than a Model 3 AND more power, and flat power. 7C discharge isn't really anything nowadays, and easilly gets you Plaid-like acceleration without giving up range. This is not a hybrid performance car that needs a tiny battery with 5 miles of range that needs to do 60C charge and discharge.