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Model 3 Highland Performance/Plaid Speculation [Car announced 04.23.2024]
- Thread starter Daniel L
- Start date
The biggest difference between heating the battery in a Model 3 Performance and heating the battery in a Plaid is that you can heat the battery in the Model 3 Performance by heating the motors but you can't easily cool the motors back down afterwards. There is no way to cool the motors down without also cooling down the battery in the Model 3 Performance. Track Mode in the Model 3 Performance will cool both the motors and the batteries simultaneously.
With the Plaid my understanding is that it will heat the battery slightly and THEN cool the motors without cooling the battery too. Cold motors with a warm battery is the ideal situation according to Tesla. We can't ever achieve that with a Model 3 Performance unless you heat the battery on a really cold day and then allow the motors to cool faster than the battery by removing the Frunk and Trunk liners and then opening them to cool the motors.
My 11.17 pass was done in this manner. It was the coldest pass I have ever made but I still managed to have the battery up close to 50 degrees C.
You could put the Plaid battery in the current Model 3 Performance and it wouldn’t make it any quicker at all. The front motor can’t handle very much power at all and it is the motor that really falls off hard after the peak HP.
I am not saying the next Model 3 Performance/Ludicous won’t have a different battery. What I am saying is that I 100% guarantee it will have different motors especially the front motor if it is going to be significantly quicker.
It may have both a motor and battery upgrade but it won’t be significantly quicker especially at higher speeds until they change at the very least the front motor. The front motor is the biggest limiting factor right now.
You realize that 15% more voltage will at most give you 15% more RPM before the torque falls off?
So if a 96S pack falls off at 55MPH, a 110S pack would fall off at 63 MPH? This isn't that big a change.
And you keep focusing on SoC, but you're forgetting that if we go from 96S to 110S, with the same number of cells, and that somehow allows us to pull more power, by definiton we are pulling more current out of each battery. Are you sure the batteries can handle this? Of course we could pull more power if we put more cells in, but that costs money and weight.
Finally, why are you so focused on 320V as the only motor voltage we can have. Why not leave the battery 96S and make a 280V battery?
Then they can have their Hyundai. I’m sure they will try and some suckers will bite.
I am not primarily talking about more power.
All I am saying is that the motor need more voltage supply to deliver full power than a 96S model 3 battery can deliver below the optimum small SOC band (403V resting voltage and perhaps 350V at high SOC /full power).
So if the motors need 350V but the voltage droops below that number the power will suffer and reduce.
The reason is that voltage is the factor that drives current and when the voltage is below the voltage needed for a certain current, the current will be lower and the power will also reduce.
Increasing the battery voltage means that the battery can hold the needed voltage at full throttle at a lower SOC, which will make it possible to keep the power despite lower SOC.
This is what was done with the Plaid battery by increasing the number of cells in series.
What I did not say in my first post but we ended up touching was that the extra voltage can be used to counter the torque droop at higher rpm. Maybe not the sole action to keep power at higher rpm but as a part to it. Just like the reduced clearings from the carbon fiber windings.
Yes, Im sure.
Of course we need to make sure the current in a cell is within the tolerable C-rating for the cell (Tesla of course knows how much they can pull).
If you have two packs with the same number if cells, one with many cells in parallell and one with many cells in series, the pack can deliver the same power for the sake of the battery.
Each cell can do a certain C-rate or Amphs, so for example, for example around 100 Watts for the M3P 2170 cells.
It doesnt matter for the sake of the battery if it is 50cells in parallel and 100 (420V) in series or the other way around. For the cells itself it will be the same amphs/C-rate and power.
But if we have a motor that need the full voltage of 50cells in series (50x4.2 = 210V) to produce full power it will never do that if we use a battery with 50cells in series. When the battery is burdened with the load of the motor, the output voltage will droop and due to this, the amphs that the motor draws is also reduced (due to the internal resistance in the motor).
So we need a overhead voltage to cover the voltage droop. If we would like to have the full power over the range of the battery SOC we need to have the voltage reduction from the reduced SOC taken into account as well.
When we end up with a battery that can deliver the needed voltage during load over the SOC range we can keep the motor output power.
This is what Tesla made with the Plaid (+ making it possible to heat the battery as voltage droop is higher at load with low SOC, as it has higher internal resistance there.
I hope you understand that the voltage reduces with SOC.
A Panasonic NCA cell has 4.20V max cell voltage at 100% with no load.
It has about 2.5V or slightly more at 0% true SOC but as Tesla has the 4.5% buffer the 0% on screen is about 3.1-3.2V no load voltage.
So a 96S pack holds ~ 403V at full charge and no load.
And it holds about 100V less at 0% on the screen.
At load, the internal resistance is depending on the cell temperature and also on the SOC. Higher internal resistance means higher voltage droop.
This is just an example, not a specific chart fort the batteries we talk about.
Higher internal resistance = higher voltage droop, and as long as the resulting voltage droop cause the battery to go below the supply voltage the motor needs to deliver the set power it will not deliver what we want.
If you (and others) do not believe me, it is time to start thinking of an explanation for yourself about why the model S Plaid did get 110 cells in series instead of 96 as Tesla used all the time (except for some cases with some smaller packs, which also caused these cars to deliver lower power).
(The older S 100D have 8256 cells in total for 102kWh, in 96S / 403V and the plaid has 7920 cells, in 110S / 462V.)
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Your statement is not a clear thought but it sounds like you are saying the Plaid can heat the battery and the Model 3 Performance can't? The Model 3 Performance battery gets to 52.3 degrees C for optimal performance. According to Tesla the Plaid doesn't need to heat the battery much at all for Peak Performance. The Plaid really benefits from cold motors according to Tesla.
I actually had the opportunity to test heating the battery for a Plaid at the track. We ran several passes with just using the built in Dragstrip mode and then ran passes after "Navigating to a Supercharger". The passes where we just got the car to "Peak Performance Ready" instead of heating them to Supercharging temperatures were quicker.
With the Model 3 Performance you absolutely have to get the car to as close to 52.3 degrees C for optimal Performance. Motor Temperature and SOC matter too but that battery mid pack temperature really matters a lot for the Model 3 Performance. For the Plaid? Not so much.
Your logical flaw here is that they did not only change the battery in the Plaid. They dramatically changed the motors as well, so you cannot take anything in isolation. The idea that the new Plaid motors are also 320V motors is completely unfounded, they have no reason to maintain that.
The fact that the Plaid drivetrain can maintain 1000HP from low RPM to 18000 RPM means that it has a bunch of overhead on voltage and is highly insensitive to back EMF.
This means it would also be insensitive to voltage drop over SoC. For all we know, this is all down to the motor, not the increased pack voltage.
If you're so, so sure that all Tesla needed to do was re-arrange the pack to 110S to make the car maintain power at lower SoC, and this would have no trade-offs, why did Tesla use 96S originally?
No, I do not.
The M3P do not have any mode to heat the battery except for charging at Superchargers.
Yes, you can use ”navigate to SuC” to warm the battery if you live close enough.
But you need to be in the car, in drive and navigating to the SuC to get it to warm. Driving in the wrong direction stops the battery heating.
So, being at the local racing track you can not get it race ready like the Plaid.
I think even the precondition you can activate with the S3XY buttons is not happening when being in drive (I have the SEXY buttons to make turn signal acceptable on the yoke. Havent tested the battery heat funktion in SEXY buttons as the Plaid has the dragstrip mode.
My 2021 M3P preheated the battery to 48C for SuC v3 (250kW) and 38-40C for SuC v2.
I did drive 66K km with scan my tesladata readable from the driving position..
I have seen this at every supercharging session. It was also logged with Teslalogger. (Here, arriving at a v3 SuC)
@eivissa has done a lot of logging and also many vvery good presentation of the data.
From memory, this is the Panasonic 2170L (82.1kWh batt) and delivered power vs temp and SOC.
There is a similar graph for the LG M-50 Tesla use in Europe (also from recent in model 3 LR in US). It is evident that the LG (which is a NMC battery) can not deliver the same power and only meets the spec at high SOC + warm battery.
We can also see that we need the battery to be warmer the lower the SOC is to keep the power. The setup on the picture could be set to deliver ~300kW and then keep it down to ~ 20% SOC.
You can not get the battery to 52.3C without actually first navigate to a suc v3 and then charge for a while. Battery heating and charging losses heats the battery to 57-58C if charged long enough.
This is not often easy to fix at the race track.
I know the battery get warm from racing but then the SOC also goes down, so a battery heating like the Pkaid would ne easy accomplished and very helpful for a M3P.
We probably shouldn’t talk about how much the cells need to be heated, and instead talk sbout the cell temp targets the plaid use.
My battery was about -20C earlier today when I backed the car into the garage.
A plaid mode/ dragstrip mode target of 44C would mean it would be heated by 64C wich is like 150F heating.
I posted the dragstrip mode cell temps earlier, 33C at higher SOC and 42-44 at ~40% SOC or so.
The lower the SOC, the higher the cell temp need to be to meet the target.
I have not seen any motor cooling in dragstrip mode, but I will check that later.
Because you probably only tested at higher SOC.
So the same test at 20% or so, try with a battery that is at about 0C.
At 0C it would be *not fast* but with dragstrip preheated temps its almost like it should be
I think I may have been corrected: https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModel3/s/NAgaNEOhJr
Seems there are some angular creases and different front splitter shape. Would be amazing to have some differentiation finally.
Seems there are some angular creases and different front splitter shape. Would be amazing to have some differentiation finally.
GreenHokie
Member
Looks like to me same brake sizes as current performance, which is not a very good news...
Wheels look like 20"s, and the gap between calipers and inside barrel look similar vs current 355mm disks with 20" uberturbines...
We can assume modified front and rear vs the camouflage, and clearly no wider body, which is also disapointing to me (Plaid wider butt is sexier)
Gauss Guzzler
Safety Score = 42
Looks like they jazzed up the splitter a little. Interesting that they're still sporting the same Chinese 19's:
That they were rocking 8 months ago:
Instead of the proper "Warp" wheels under covers:
By the way, I'm all for violating California's damn tint and license plate laws, but how do automakers manage to do it so blatantly?
That they were rocking 8 months ago:
Instead of the proper "Warp" wheels under covers:
By the way, I'm all for violating California's damn tint and license plate laws, but how do automakers manage to do it so blatantly?
Probably close rendering.
Hoping it's more aggressive but doubt it ...
Hoping it's more aggressive but doubt it ...
Destiny1701
22’ M3LR ‘DrkNite’/ 22’ MYP BliueRocket
Well done! I hope they give some
Wider fenders for a wider wheelbase and tires. And they need a real ‘stealth’ grey in matte !
