Model 3 Mule Sightings

[Petra]

I know it's meant to be funny but in all seriousness I hope someone there does ask this question as well as other questions that maybe don't come off as "I've drank the cool-aid and am all in" but still in a respectful/objective way.

You know as soon as the the first handful of reviewers get their hands on the car (motor trend, consumer reports, kbb, etc) they're doing to be wondering many of the same things and will put that in their reviews - which is what the masses will be reading when deciding to either get a new higher specced Honda/Toyota or try out this new fangled Tesla they've been hearing about.

There's no Q&A between Elon and the crowd during the reveals so far, so this IS the time to ask about things like how AP info is going to display on just one screen, what the steering wheel controls (if any) will do,exactly how the trunk was re-designed, etc, etc.. If the questions aren't asked now, they'll just be asked again by the buying public come decision time for a new car in 2018.

Fair point.

The Q&A session with Franz is scheduled after the hour and a half Model 3 viewing, hour and a half factory tour, and lunch... which is good, because I feel like getting a little time with the Model 3 first will help to inform which questions make sense to ask. It's possible that many of the items you brought up could be answered just by interacting with the car. Interacting with the car could also bring up questions that one wouldn't have thought to ask otherwise.

 

[Sonny Daze]

Simplicity is beauty.

Beautiful... not.

Robert Rauschenberg, White Painting, 1951

 

[cdub]

I know I'm talking about another tier of car, but the lucid interior released a week or two ago looks futuristic/minimalistic without looking like it lacks effort. It is possible to make something simple that ALSO looks good. thats why I originally said it looks like Tesla ran out of budget on the car. I don't think they intended the M3 interior to look like this.

I completely disagree... this is EXACTLY what they wanted. It's minimalist and awesome. I'm not a huge fan of the Lucid. Also, frankly I don't think another startup has the capability to pull off what Tesla has done.

 

[ikjadoon]

Totally understand your point, but is all of that something you want to take a chance with when it comes to a very demanding and unforgiving segment of car buyers? Model 3's design just seems like it's asking for trouble.

Tesla is tapping into new market segments--not existing ones. There were 17.55 million cars sold in the USA in 2016. Tesla wants to carve out 3% for their ~500k/year sales (ish). That is the question: out of the millions and millions of car buyers, are there 3% that want innovative cars that take risks? If yes, then Tesla succeeds.

But, they'll never get to 3% without a "good enough" implementation for the "risk takers". There's a balance of "innovation" and "usability". From my signature, sometimes Tesla gets it right and sometimes they strike out.

They cater to a technologically-minded market that wants innovative cars that take risks. This market isn't that demanding and unforgiving. Their success does depend on implementation: if the iPhone had a laggy touchscreen? DOA. Demonstrably bad cell phone reception? DOA. Incessant "BSODs" and crashes? DOA. Too small? DOA. You gotta make it work and make it work well. You can't claim innovation and then have a crappy deliverable. It needs to make sense and "just work"; the minor babies that got thrown out with the bath water can be put back later.

IMO, I can see a bloated, laggy, confusing touchscreen on the Model 3. I can also see a very thoughtful, clean, fluid interface. If Tesla is right? If there is a big enough market for innovative, risk-taking cars? Then the stock price is warranted and Tesla is going to revolutionize the auto industry. If Tesla is wrong? Maybe they'll only sell 150k cars a year, the stock takes a dive, and Tesla has to try again with the Model Y in a few years.

 

[derekmw]

Tesla is tapping into new market segments--not existing ones. There were 17.55 million cars sold in the USA in 2016. Tesla wants to carve out 3% for their ~500k/year sales (ish). That is the question: out of the millions and millions of car buyers, are there 3% that want innovative cars that take risks? If yes, then Tesla succeeds.

But, they'll never get to 3% without a "good enough" implementation for the "risk takers". There's a balance of "innovation" and "usability". From my signature, sometimes Tesla gets it right and sometimes they strike out.

They cater to a technologically-minded market that wants innovative cars that take risks. This market isn't that demanding and unforgiving. Their success does depend on implementation: if the iPhone had a laggy touchscreen? DOA. Demonstrably bad cell phone reception? DOA. Incessant "BSODs" and crashes? DOA. Too small? DOA. You gotta make it work and make it work well. You can't claim innovation and then have a crappy deliverable. It needs to make sense and "just work"; the minor babies that got thrown out with the bath water can be put back later.

IMO, I can see a bloated, laggy, confusing touchscreen on the Model 3. I can also see a very thoughtful, clean, fluid interface. If Tesla is right? If there is a big enough market for innovative, risk-taking cars? Then the stock price is warranted and Tesla is going to revolutionize the auto industry. If Tesla is wrong? Maybe they'll only sell 150k cars a year, the stock takes a dive, and Tesla has to try again with the Model Y in a few years.

I think this and your signature say it all. As a current MS owner, I see how Tesla tried to force their ideas of what they think a car's interior should have (no coat hangers, no cup holders in the rear, no sunglass holder, etc). Tesla may have their own idea of what they think people should want, but that doesn't mean people accept that.

For me PERSONALLY, the lack of certain features didn't prevent me from buying one, but it does annoy me constantly. I had to buy aftermarket cup holders, I still can't find a good solution that I like for storage of my sunglasses, and from other posts, we see people having to get other customized items put in cars to get what almost every car in the market has.

So while Tesla may try to say this new M3 interior is all that a customer should want, that will most likely not be the case. I am sure we will see a lot of custom aftermarket items out as soon as the M3 goes on sale to help satisfy those customers who still want the M3 but are annoyed by the lack of things they consider are essential to be in the car.

 

[T34ME]

I am sure we will see a lot of custom aftermarket items out as soon as the M3 goes on sale to help satisfy those customers who still want the M3 but are annoyed by the lack of things they consider are essential to be in the car.

But isn't that the point of the TM3 interior? Start with the minimal, essential basics, some will like it and some won't. Everyone has a different definition of what essential is. For those that don't like it, they can clutter the interior with all the gizmos, gadgets, buttons, switches, bells and whistles they want. For example, I have a car with a HUD (and the digital speedometer is to the right). For me it is a non-essential piece of gizmology and seldom used. For those that can't live without HUD, they can tack on one of the HUD devices shown in a post above. Everyone s happy.

 

[BluestarE3]

vs.

 

[eisbock]

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone… What Apple risks here is its reputation as a hot company that can do no wrong. If it's smart it will call the iPhone a ‘reference design' and pass it to some suckers to build with someone else's marketing budget. Then it can wash its hands of any marketplace failures… Otherwise I'd advise people to cover their eyes. You are not going to like what you'll see." - John C. Dvorak, tech columnist, 2007

I don't understand why people keep comparing Model 3 to the iPhone. The iPhone gave people a new way to use a phone. Model 3 is giving people a new way to... not be able to do things they would normally be able to do on any other car?

The iPhone replaced the physical keyboard with a touch screen. Model 3 replaced the dash display with... a piece of wood?

The iPhone turned the phone into a sleek, beautiful, functional package. Model 3 took the iPhone (or rather iPad) and stuck it on a stalk on the dashboard. That would be like the iPhone replacing the slide-out keyboard with a slide-out touch screen. How is this innovative? It's lazy.

The iPhone gave people a new way to use a cellphone, and added more features than ever seen before. Model 3 is removing features and restricting the user experience. "Do you need those things in a taxi?" It's the exact opposite of the iPhone.

 

[arjay]

On the theory that Elon et. al. are taking our comments seriously, I will add my 2 cents (again) about the interior. I think derekmw reflects my concerns as well. We humans are a fussy bunch, especially about personal space, comfort, style, and ego. I'm thinking the straight, flat surfaces are more reminiscent of middle school shop class than an interior environment many folks would want to spend time in. The white color emphasizes the "thin cheap look", while my personal choice would be darker colors like dark grey or black (NOT shiny) to help the surfaces recede into the background. Rounding the surfaces and corners would also contribute to a feeling of lushness and implied comfort without compromising the clean futuristic look.

Since interior appointment design and manufacture have been well rehearsed over the last half century, hopefully the M3 will have an optional interior upgrade available for we aficionados of comfort.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

That's something I have wonder about, why don't Tesla have headlight washer? Is that just a prof that Tesla is design in and for California?

Yes. And also: You won't care.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The back ends are exactly the same... I wasn't sure which Prius you think the Model 3 looks like, so I compared it to all of them

I should note, that specific picture is misleading because the black color fails to show the contour lines of the Model 3. Essentially it shows a 2D view. If you look from the back, the Model 3 has a very aggressive contour in the rear, which has much less mass in the back (not a designer so not sure if my terminology is correct). The Prius however has sides that are almost flat.

That's why the silver picture looks sleeker (because it actually is):

Edit: note my terminology may not be correct, just look at the pictures, it should be self-evidence why the Model 3 is sleeker than the Prius.
Looking at the rear should make my point (notice the curves to the greenhouse and how narrow it is relative to the lower part of the body):

Prius (greenhouse width is almost same size as body, the 2017 model tries to use some trick by having the turn signal section stick out to emulate a contour, but you can see how if you leave out that section, it is still largely flat, like the outgoing model):

 

[AnxietyRanger]

On the question of simplicity I think the jury is still out on that.

There's simple and then there's just cheap.

Apple does simple. And simple design, as they tell you, is not easy.

Some simple things are just cheap. Model 3 prototype looks a little borderline to me. Is it simple or just cheap?

I keep an open mind on that.

 

[Twiglett]

On the theory that Elon et. al. are taking our comments seriously, I will add my 2 cents (again) about the interior. I think derekmw reflects my concerns as well. We humans are a fussy bunch, especially about personal space, comfort, style, and ego. I'm thinking the straight, flat surfaces are more reminiscent of middle school shop class than an interior environment many folks would want to spend time in. The white color emphasizes the "thin cheap look", while my personal choice would be darker colors like dark grey or black (NOT shiny) to help the surfaces recede into the background. Rounding the surfaces and corners would also contribute to a feeling of lushness and implied comfort without compromising the clean futuristic look.

Since interior appointment design and manufacture have been well rehearsed over the last half century, hopefully the M3 will have an optional interior upgrade available for we aficionados of comfort.

As the interior has changed very little since the initial reveal I would think that the chances of this happening are almost nil.
If more proof where needed, apart from having four wheels and some doors, how much of the "well rehearsed" half century of dogma has Tesla been known to be following - ever......

 

[T34ME]

Now that the "front end has not changed" debate has been thoroughly debunked, I am happy to see we now have the "interior design" debate to occupy our time. I would be freakin bored waiting for Reveal Three and opening of the Configuration Options if it were not for TMC. Carry on, this is entertainment at its best!

 

[N5329K]

The Volvo interior shown above looks like the well thought out and not too gadget-infested design of an actual car company, with seats you want to sit in and information as you might need it, but not too much information. The Model 3 interior (so far as we've seen it) looks like a startup's version of minimalist design, made from equal parts technology and cheap and springing full-blown from a management edict that "There will only be one screen. Make it so."
Kind of like "The doors will fold up like this. Make it so."
Not quite a clean sheet of paper design, and definitely not "a spaceship."
I always thought this 1980 Citroen did pretty well on the "like a spaceship" scale.
Robin

 

[Jayc]

I should note, that specific picture is misleading because the black color fails to show the contour lines of the Model 3. Essentially it shows a 2D view. If you look from the back, the Model 3 has a very aggressive contour in the rear, which has much less mass in the back (not a designer so not sure if my terminology is correct). The Prius however has sides that are almost flat.

That's why the silver picture looks sleeker (because it actually is):

Looking at the rear should make my point (notice the curves to the greenhouse and how narrow it is relative to the lower part of the body):

Prius (greenhouse width is same size as body, the 2017 model tries to use some trick by having the turn signal section stick out to emulate a contour, but you can see how if you leave out that section, it is still largely flat, like the outgoing model):

No free lunch on aerodynamics folks.

Realised very early on that the profile closely resembles the Prius but Tesla has managed to make it more curvy so wasn't immediately obvious.

I'd like to see the responses of Prius bashers now

 

[eisbock]

Not everyone has to say nice things about the car all the time. But it sure seems like you have absolutely nothing nice to say, which is fine, but is does beg the question, "Why do you even bother coming here if all you're going to do is complain about how much you don't like the car?"

Really, if you hate it that much then you need to let it go. The vast majority of what you're complaining about is purely subjective and there are plenty of others who really like the exact things you keep going on about. You don't like it, we get that, but you don't need to keep letting us know, at every opportunity, how much you don't like it.

I find this fascinating. People are allowed to drool over the car, but not criticize it? I'd argue that healthy criticisms of an extremely expensive purchase are more worthwhile and invoke more meaningful discussion than thousands upon thousands of "i like dis" posts.

I'm clearly interested in the car and this company, and I clearly enjoy discussing both. My interest goes far beyond liking or disliking the spoiler placement on the car, which is why I'm still here. Not once did I say I hate Model 3. In fact, if you didn't cherry pick my negative posts, you'd find loads of positive reactions, including many "I'm still gonna buy it" posts. If you don't like my posts, keep scrolling. Nobody's holding a gun to your head forcing you to respond or take offense to them. It would be much more beneficial to the community and spirit of discussion if you commented on the content of my posts and not my negativity. You'll notice I don't go around attacking users for expressing opinions I disagree with.

If that's not something you can handle, then maybe you shouldn't post here.

 

[eisbock]

I for one like that he does. It helps keep things balanced. Forums such as these usually have far more positive voices than negative voices on future products anyway. Some critical posters helps even out the conversation - @eisbock does it in a polite manner and that's good.

If you go back the history of @eisbock, his is clearly a reflection of disappointment in the evolution of Model 3, yet it started out completely differently - while his writing style has remained consistently the same (e.g. Model 3 Unveiling - March 31st!). He may write a little from the negative starting points, but not in any way consistently against Model 3, that's simply his tone/style. And those opinions are subjective but still just as useful data points when discussing buyer sentiment and changes thereof as the positive ones are...

If it bugs you that some are not thrilled about what they see on Model 3, the more they see it, then perhaps that tells something about Model 3 as well.

Besides, asking someone to "let go" of Model 3 two months prior to reveal seems like bad advice to me. A lot of us are on the sidelines, sure starting make up our minds, but still waiting sensibly to see what the end-result is before deciding for good.

Whoa, this is pretty surreal, witnessing someone analyze my posts like this! The reveal and RC cars are huge milestones in my sentiment and attitude toward Model 3. The nostalgia of my younger, optimistic thoughts are flowing back and hitting me pretty hard right now.

 

[kablammyman]

I totally disagree. I'm convinced the reason the Model S is doing so well is that people who couldn't / wouldn't buy a car that expensive are stretching to buy the Model S because it's a great car, certainly not for the interior.
The S draws from a much larger base than other cars in it's class because of this reason.

Similarly the 3 will do the same. It'll get people who were previous "in the segment" buyers who would have gone for a BMW 3 series or the like, in addition to people who will "stretch" from the Camry, Accord, Etc. market. The Camry and Accord market segment is HUGE and Tesla will be able to draw people to it and tap into a massive customer base.

I'm one of those people. I've never paid more than $12,000 for a car, never bought new, despite being able to afford a new Model S P100D if I choose. Car's have always been a "bad investment" for me, so I didn't spend much on them. Tesla is upselling to people like me, and they are going to do it in droves.

-Jim

I dont know if you can compare the model S to the model 3 when it comes to people stretching their budget to afford one. The model S is a great car without many compromises...it offers what many cars in its class (well, a class below) offers + tesla flair! (like OTA updates) Even with OTA and the like, general public find the car desirable when it comes to aesthetics and style.

The issue is that model 3 may not be that way, it has a polarizing interior and has MANY compromises according to Elon himself. So, YOU and other people on this board may love the interior, but will car enthusiasts like it, or more importantly Will John Q. Public like it? Again, "you wont care" isnt close to as good as "this new take is better"

Also, when they take out everything but a giant tablet in the Model S and X, maybe i will believe that Tesla feels that this is the better design for an interior.

 

[BluestarE3]

I always thought this 1980 Citroen did pretty well on the "like a spaceship" scale.
Robin
View attachment 225348

Well, that certainly avoids the LHD vs. RHD steering wheel issue for a global market vehicle. But why does the car have a uvula?