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Model 3 SR+ showing 166 miles at 80% charge.. is that right?

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it is funny because gasoline holds a lot more energy by mass than batteries, but combustion engines are far less efficient than electric motors.

The numbers are kind of interesting.
EV batteries are approaching 2 kWh per gallon (3.75 Litre), or about 6 - 8 miles travel
ICE travel between 10 - 50 mpg. The US passenger fleet averages about 20 mpg and consumes about 40 kWh of source energy per gallon

So an ICE consumes 20x the heat energy to travel 3x further, or about 7x more heat energy than EV per distance
 
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Never heard of this happening for this vehicle type.

Wheel selection should have no impact on rated range for this vehicle.
Try it for yourself - go into the screen and change your wheel type - you'll see the range on the guessometer change.

The 19" wheels are less aerodynamic than the wheels with aero covers.

Or go into the configurator, change the wheel selection and see the rated range change - the UK site shows a new order SR as 317 miles on the 18" aero and 305 on the 19"
 
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I don't care if it's "quite normal", IMO a 17% loss at 13,644 miles is quite bullsh!t... When they advertise an EV, they should advertise it with real world, perhaps, worst case scenario, range numbers, so people aren't duped into thinking they will get anywhere near the advertised range.. I didn't get 240 when it was new. I pity the folks that bought a straight SR, they're likely only getting 180 miles of range at 100% charge.
This is indeed the exact standard for the pharmaceutical industry today. Would be consistent consumer protection to have similar for EVs.

I'm surprised the laws haven't been updated to inform and protect consumers better for EVs as well. EPA needs to provide more useful testing, rather than optimal brand new condition testing only.
 
This is indeed the exact standard for the pharmaceutical industry today. Would be consistent consumer protection to have similar for EVs.

I'm surprised the laws haven't been updated to inform and protect consumers better for EVs as well. EPA needs to provide more useful testing, rather than optimal brand new condition testing only.
you want consistency between 2 different gov't departments? 2 different departments with different missions? and to have consumer protections as the lead when a third department is responsible for consumer protections, not the prior 2? and you want them to buck trends and standards of other sovereign nations and the EU?

and you are surprised?

with all due respect, i could not disagree more with your post.
 
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go into the screen and change your wheel type - you'll see the range on the guessometer change.
I will assume you mean the consumption screen. Maybe this changes things, maybe it doesn’t (it shouldn’t, since if it did it it would screw up capacity method - though it changes the Trip Planner for sure). But in any case not what I was referring to, as you can see.

Rated range (Model 3) only responds to wheel selection on 2020 Performance to my knowledge. It is certainly possible new vehicles could be measured in EPA tests with multiple configs and thus enable this as they did for 2020P but not common. It is easy to see on Tesla US site when a range is EPA tested - it says so.
 
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you want consistency between 2 different gov't departments? 2 different departments with different missions? and to have consumer protections as the lead when a third department is responsible for consumer protections, not the prior 2? and you want them to buck trends and standards of other sovereign nations and the EU?

and you are surprised?

with all due respect, i could not disagree more with your post.
No, I was not suggesting unifying rules for pharma and EVs and oversight of both to be centralized at all. Just no. You clearly can understand the point, which is that I believe better consumer protection laws should and will go in place. Don't make an argument where there isn't one, or misconstrue what I said and attack your false re-interpretation.
 
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No, I was not suggesting unifying rules for pharma and EVs and oversight of both to be centralized at all. Just no. You clearly can understand the point, which is that I believe better consumer protection laws should and will go in place. Don't make an argument where there isn't one, or misconstrue what I said and attack your false re-interpretation.
in that case, i have no idea what you are asking the EPA to do, then.

but whatever it is, you may want to contact your legislature and the EPA directly.
 
No, I was not suggesting unifying rules for pharma and EVs and oversight of both to be centralized at all. Just no. You clearly can understand the point, which is that I believe better consumer protection laws should and will go in place. Don't make an argument where there isn't one, or misconstrue what I said and attack your false re-interpretation.
I've always considered EPA MPG ratings as an "apples to apples" comparison for consumers to evaluate the efficiency between different makes and models, not a truth in actual real world use. The same applies for EV range. The test conditions should be identical so that there is a proper comparison when shopping between brands and models. There are simply too many variables in the real world to expect an accurate mileage rating that is one size fits all. You're trying to fit a round peg in a square hole - EPA ratings are about efficiency, not gas tank (or battery) capacity.
 
The same applies for EV range. The test conditions should be identical so that there is a proper comparison when shopping between brands and models.
Unfortunately some multiply the result by 0.7, while others use 0.75, etc. So even two manufacturers with identical results could have different ratings. It is a choice. 0.7 is the default. But if 5-cycle testing is done, other choices are allowed, to multiply the two-cycle test results by.

It is just the rules.

Separately there is the issue of how much of the energy used in testing is displayed in the car (all of it must be accessible, but displaying it as usable is a separate issue and it is allowed to be hidden (usable!) or use discouraged with warnings and nagging).

And finally there are capacity loss rates which may differ between technologies and manufacturers. (Not really relevant to the testing discussion but may impact long-term comparisons.)
 
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Unfortunately some multiply the result by 0.7, while others use 0.75, etc. So even two manufacturers with identical results could have different ratings. It is a choice. 0.7 is the default. But if 5-cycle testing is done, other choices are allowed, to multiply the two-cycle test results by.
The multipliers are specified, but car companies are allowed to report worse numbers than the test results if they choose (which seems to be why Porsche EVs have such poor EPA numbers but third party testers sometimes beat the EPA number by much more in Porsche EVs than other EVs -- perhaps Porsche assumes that its drivers will driver like Porsche drivers instead of EPA drivers so they do not want to disappoint them).

There are also some situations where a test result for one vehicle can be assumed to apply to another. Ford seemingly overstretched on that when it reported the 47/47 rating for the C-Max hybrid (taken from the Fusion hybrid), even though the C-Max had a much larger frontal area and aerodynamic drag that meant that no one was getting close to that (economy was still very good, but not as good as the EPA rating). Ford eventually had to redo the EPA ratings...
 
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The multipliers are specified
And can be variable, according to EPA formula and manufacturer choice.
car companies are allowed to report worse numbers than the test results if they choose

Yes, this is true, not mentioned above. Though that is for range (important), and does not impact the efficiency number (unlike the scalar, which affects both).

Anyway none of these manipulations are secret; it is all published. Not on the Monroney though.
 
And can be variable, according to EPA formula and manufacturer choice.
According to https://www.epa.gov/system/files/documents/2022-12/420r22029.pdf page D-2 in Appendix D, there is no mention of manufacturers being able to choose multipliers, but "Under the 5-cycle methodology, manufacturers could either: 1) perform all five tests on each vehicle (the “full 5-cycle” method), 2) use an alternative analytical “derived 5-cycle” method based on 2-cycle testing if certain conditions were met, or 3) voluntarily use lower fuel economy label estimates than those resulting from the full 5-cycle or derived 5-cycle."

I.e. they have to follow the methods specified (with a choice of the 5-cycle test or 2-cycle test with specified conversion equations), but can choose to put label estimates that are worse than the actual estimates from the test.
 
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According to https://www.epa.gov/system/files/documents/2022-12/420r22029.pdf page D-2 in Appendix D, there is no mention of manufacturers being able to choose multipliers, but "Under the 5-cycle methodology, manufacturers could either: 1) perform all five tests on each vehicle (the “full 5-cycle” method), 2) use an alternative analytical “derived 5-cycle” method based on 2-cycle testing if certain conditions were met, or 3) voluntarily use lower fuel economy label estimates than those resulting from the full 5-cycle or derived 5-cycle."

I.e. they have to follow the methods specified (with a choice of the 5-cycle test or 2-cycle test with specified conversion equations), but can choose to put label estimates that are worse than the actual estimates from the test.
You can just look and see what they do.

I haven’t seen anyone state worse estimates but have not looked recently.

Basically have just seen 0.7, or the use of a scalar based on 5-cycle testing formula which ends up being between 0.7 and 0.75 (typically).

And occasionally voluntary range reduction (which is different).

It’s all in the EPA dataset in any case.

Tesla does 5 cycles and uses the multiplier based on those cycle results to multiply the two-cycle weighted-average result.

I have no idea how the rules for EVs corresponds to the general test results and have not bothered to try to dig for detailed documents on that and exactly what the rules and formulas are. I did at one point (and found a document with some formulas) but gave up basically.
 
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I will assume you mean the consumption screen. Maybe this changes things, maybe it doesn’t (it shouldn’t, since if it did it it would screw up capacity method - though it changes the Trip Planner for sure). But in any case not what I was referring to, as you can see.

Rated range (Model 3) only responds to wheel selection on 2020 Performance to my knowledge. It is certainly possible new vehicles could be measured in EPA tests with multiple configs and thus enable this as they did for 2020P but not common. It is easy to see on Tesla US site when a range is EPA tested - it says so.
No I'm referring to the battery icon at the top of the screen (which I think the OP was using - its such a long thread lol) when its showing remaining miles rather than percentage. It changes when you change the wheel configuration. My 2019 SR+ does this.
 
No I'm referring to the battery icon at the top of the screen (which I think the OP was using - its such a long thread lol) when its showing remaining miles rather than percentage. It changes when you change the wheel configuration. My 2019 SR+ does this.
That is not a guess-o-meter in the sense that the term is usually used to describe a distance-to-empty display that takes into account recent consumption.

The consumption display in the energy display has what is better described as the guess-o-meter.
 
That is not a guess-o-meter in the sense that the term is usually used to describe a distance-to-empty display that takes into account recent consumption.

The consumption display in the energy display has what is better described as the guess-o-meter.
Shall we call it the never-right-o-meter then?

Whether it is based on EPA numbers, Battery voltage, anticipated future usage, they are all guess-o-meters. They are all indicators of estimated range.

I love the fact that someone can attempt to define terms like this so specifically.
 
Ok, so it happened to day. I charged my car to 100% (accidently left it at 100% after a trip). I had 240 miles of range when I left home. I got to work and I parked it with 169 miles. That's a 71 mile loss, however my odometer only shows I went 57 miles. My (ICE) Tacoma truck is way more accurate then this. Lets face it the mileage as is just a "guess o meter" at best. I'm sure it will get better with time and better batteries.
 
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I don't care if it's "quite normal", IMO a 17% loss at 13,644 miles is quite bullsh!t... When they advertise an EV, they should advertise it with real world, perhaps, worst case scenario, range numbers, so people aren't duped into thinking they will get anywhere near the advertised range.. I didn't get 240 when it was new. I pity the folks that bought a straight SR, they're likely only getting 180 miles of range at 100% charge.
So you measure your iPad's utility in the amount of time you can use it on 80% charge every time you charge it? Or do you generally expect that when you charge it full you get a day's worth of use out of it and charge it again?

Looking at it another way - I don't think anyone measures ICE vehicles against the EPA standards and expects them to perform on the number - too many variables.

Point being, perhaps if you focused on SoC as a % of total battery capacity, monitored SoC charging when needed, and stopped looking at milage estimates you would be happier with your vehicle using it day to day, and not frustrated over the range versus the manufacturer provided range.