Model 3 vs. Model S Wars

[Troy]

Here is the current situation:

• The Model S is difficult to manufacture and needs a complete redesign. Elon said when they designed the Model S, they were just trying to make it work but when they designed the Model 3, their main focus was to make the production easy.
• The Model S needs a new production line that is as automated as the Model 3 production line. Otherwise, labor costs will remain high and the Model S won't have any chance to compete against the Model 3. Reducing Model S prices is difficult right now and will remain so for at least 2 more years.
• Tesla will make better margins on the Model 3 than the Model S. The Model S has ~28% gross margin. I'm calculating 30% on the Model 3.
• Financially, it makes more sense for Tesla to release a larger battery for the Model 3 before a larger battery for the Model S because the Model 3 is easier to manufacture, uses the new cells, will have a higher production rate and has the more advanced production line.

 

[Aieukl378]

Did you read your own title? "Model 3 vs Model S wars" - You thought people would not start comparing cars in the thread and assume your initial question was the entire subject of the thread?

I guess I thought they'd read the post

 

[Model S M.D.]

Yes, the differences are pretty obvious because when you look at the 75 kWh Model S and the Long Range Model 3, the Model 3 is obviously the better car, despite everything that Tesla says.

• The Model 3 LR has 20% more range than the Model S 75
• The Model 3 LR is 20% more efficient than the Model S 75
  
• The Model 3 LR costs 20% less to charge than the Model S 75
  
• The Model 3 LR battery degradation is 20% slower than the Model S 75
  
• The Model 3 has more rear seat headroom than the Model S
  
• The Model 3 has the newer battery technology
• The Model 3 has a driver facing camera
• The Model 3 center console has more storage space
• The Model 3 has door pockets
• The Model 3 is more aerodynamic
• The Model 3 has a more modern design
  
• The Model 3 costs less
• The Model 3 is future proof but the Model S is not because Tesla will redesign the Model S to make it easier to manufacture which means current Model S cars will be locked to the current battery pack options. You won't be able to upgrade the battery.
  
• The Model 3 LR is not about to be discontinued however the Model S 75 is. Tesla has already confirmed this. Buying a car that is about to be discontinued is not appealing to many buyers. The Model 3 75D is also likely to be discontinued when sales drop to almost zero soon.
  
• The Model 3 has the more automated production line. Listen here to Elon confirming this. That means fewer parts are hand assembled compared to the Model S which means fewer manufacturing errors.
• Model 3 LR resale value is not going to tank soon but the 75 kWh Model S is.

75 kWh Model S sales will plummet but Tesla doesn't mind it because they will hit higher profit margins on the Model 3 than the Model S because the Model 3 production line is more automated and the car is much easier to produce. They need to completely redesign the Model S to make it easier to manufacture and they need a completely new Model S production line that is more automated.

These things will take 3-4 years. In the meantime, they will just discontinue versions that don't sell well. In fact, I predicted they would discontinue the 75 before they did. See my message here from a few months ago. Here is a new prediction: They will discontinue the Model S 75D too.

Also: lighted vanity mirrors, dry cleaning hooks, seatback pockets, (+/- no keyfob/NFC keycard) and electronically controlled HVAC/side mirrors/steering wheel position. I totally agree with you that a Model 3 is so much more advanced than the Model S.

The one major feature I wish the Model 3 had was air suspension, which I think is a must have and now standard on all Model S.

 

[Troy]

Wasn't this the guy that created some poll asking people to rate whether he was an insider or just brilliant?

That wasn't me. I would predict that you are not very good at research but that would be too obvious to count as a prediction. Show us some links so we can check out who you are talking about.

 

[Aieukl378]

what are you talking about? I don't even know what you mean by "wars" - debates? about what?

Like this troll thread: The Model 3 is significantly improved over the Model S in design, and Tesla probably does not want people to think about that

 

[Mattzilla]

All I know is, for me personally, if the M3 had been available when I bought my S, I absolutely would have bought a 3 instead.

But I'm in the crowd that doesn't come from wealth and I have never owned a "luxury" car before the S. I went from a heavily used Ford Focus that I purchased cheap after it had been in an accident to an S, lol.

Love the S, but those are the facts...

 

[Aieukl378]

I would agree that Tesla did a poor job of significantly differentiating the vehicles. The difference in size and the "premium" interior features unique to the S just don't justify the staggering price difference. I think they're going to see some serious cannibalization.

Do you own a Models S?

 

[Aieukl378]

That wasn't me. I would predict that you are not very good at research but that would be too obvious to count as a prediction.

Do you own a Model S?

 

[calisnow]

No - I don't think they are trolling Tesla - differences which seem "glaringly obvious" you you, as an S owner - may not be so obvious to the keyboard jockeys of Reddit.

 

[Aieukl378]

Here is the current situation:

• The Model S is difficult to manufacture and needs a complete redesign. Elon said when they designed the Model S, they were just trying to make it work but when they designed the Model 3, their main focus was to make the production easy.
• The Model S needs a new production line that is as automated as the Model 3 production line. Otherwise, labor costs will remain high and the Model S won't have any chance to compete against the Model 3. Reducing Model S prices is difficult right now and will remain so for at least 2 more years.
• Tesla will make better margins on the Model 3 than the Model S. The Model S has ~28% gross margin. I'm calculating 30% on the Model 3.
• Financially, it makes more sense for Tesla to release a larger battery for the Model 3 before a larger battery for the Model S because the Model 3 is easier to manufacture, uses the new cells, will have a higher production rate and has the more advanced production line.

After reading your posts you certainly have invested a lot of time(maybe too much) into a subject you don't have any hands on experience with. I'm sure Elon Musk super appreciates your sage advice and and hopefully sees your posts in time to fix the incredibly outdated Model S before it's too late...

 

[Aieukl378]

All I know is, for me personally, if the M3 had been available when I bought my S, I absolutely would have bought a 3 instead.

But I'm in the crowd that doesn't come from wealth and I have never owned a "luxury" car before the S. I went from a heavily used Ford Focus that I purchased cheap after it had been in an accident to an S, lol.

Love the S, but those are the facts...

Believe me, I get it. I reserved Model 3 day1 hour1(then got the ms60 etc.)and from what I've seen so far, model 3 Is awesome but what's odd is people coming out of the woodwork trashing the S(which I own and is a technological marvel)...just curious if there is some ulterior motive.

 

[azred]

What a stupid thread. About as dumb as the phony Model 3 delivery prediction tool. I guess I should make my outdated Model S75 park outside on the curb next to the garbage can since it is now dogging up my garage.

 

[xav-]

Agree the way I read the event is tesla is like "dang we nailed the production cost on this. We can make a ton of cars for cheap and we have a ton of demand. Screw the S". Very, very good event IMO

 

[hsctiger93]

Just my very individual opinion, so shoot me down if you like, but...
1. Model S owners were always the quintessential early adopters. All of us knew that not only would our cars have issues (some more than others), but something better would ultimately come along. It did. That's great. It's progress. For those who used to purchase the top of the line computers only to see bigger, faster, cheaper come along how is this any different?
2. Elon Musk has reminded S and X owners on a number of occasions that if we hadn't purchased, the Model 3 never would have come out. For those of us who made MS purchase decisions partly on our agreement with Musk that the planet needs to get off fossil fuels as soon as possible, it's gratifying to know we played a part. That won't show up on my epitaph or anything, but I'm happy I helped usher in a quantum change in how society transports itself.
3. I respectfully disagree with those who view cars as investments that must maintain value. Unless you're collecting cars, an automobile is consumption. My MS will remain in my possession until I give it to one of my kids. And then I hope they keep it another 10 years. By then cars may be fueled by imagination. Who knows? But the notion that the Model 3 launch has somehow harmed me... I disagree. I helped cause the launch.

The Model 3 is a great new car. The Model S is still a great car and it has differentiation- maybe not enough now, but it will. I personally look forward to seeing my first M3 on the road soon!

 

[YauKwan]

You guys know that you can just get a 3 and sell your S whenever you like and the difference in pricing would be nominal? There is still and will continue to have a market for a large luxury EV. If you dont believe, just post your S on the marketplace here and see how many offers you get.

Tesla continuously improves on the vehicle. You'll never keep up with top of the line. Just drive the car you have and get a new one at some point in the future.

The car you purchased haven't changed to be worse since you bought it, just because a new car comes out? Its the same car or even slightly better because of OTA updates. Enjoy your time with it.

 

[zuwarrior14]

I don't understand why there was so much negativity toward Troy. There are many clever trolls I have seen on this forum and Troy is far from it. The guy obviously has a tremendous passion of Tesla which can include both positive and "negative" constructive opinions. Using the analogy of entitled to an opinion only when you own a Tesla is so ridiculous. It says a lot about who you are.

 

[North75]

While the 3 ...has its appeal being a modern EV. If it were an ICE car, it wouldn't hold up to most cars in its class. Ie. 3 series, A4, merc C, infinity G, Acura TLX, etc...small trunk space, flat angled front bumper, more hatchback than sporty. Not particularly fond of its shortened design over the S. Just personal opinion. I have 2 M3's on order as a second vehicles in the family. But I don't believe they will win any design awards lol.

I disagree with this. I think the model 3 stands up just fine against the other cars listed without considering the drivetrain. The trunk space is just about the same, perhaps a bit bigger if you count the frunk. Not sure what you have against the front bumper, I like it. I'm not sure what you consider sporty, I think the lines of the 3 look great. I think its one of the best looking cars I've seen in a while.
As you state, all personal opinion I guess.

I also think the interior of the model 3 blows the competition away as well. (but that's another thread)

 

[R.S]

I'm seeing more and more of this on Reddit and TMC but what's with the "Model 3 vs Model S wars"? The differences are so glaringly obvious...is this some new way of trolling Tesla?

Yes, this is, obviously a thing and I am not really sure why. I think many model 3 reservation holders feel their car is artificially held down by the existence of the Model S and therefore want it gone. But I am not sure.

They make up the wildest claims, like Tesla will make more money on a Model 3, or something like that. Which might be some form of reassurance they need to convince themselves. Or if they just scream it out loudly enough, Tesla will discontinue the Model S and therefore unleash some "full potential" of the Model 3.

In it's core it's BS, mixed with some halve truths. Tesla surely needs to update the Model S in the coming years, it's definitely aging. And we all know the 75 will soon be replaced by an 85. But of course there will be a equivalent for the 75 in the future, maybe with a bit more range. And no, Tesla won't make AP free and lower the price of the bigger battery on the Model 3. Tesla isn't anti selling the car, it's what they have to ask for it.

 

[DrivingRockies]

Tesla isn't anti selling the car,

Elon is quoted as such.

Elon Musk confirms Model 3 reservations have surged to over half a million

 

[MP3Mike]

All I know is, for me personally, if the M3 had been available when I bought my S, I absolutely would have bought a 3 instead.

I thought everyone said that people only wanted hatchbacks, and that a real sedan wouldn't sell.

Seems like people are fine with a real sedan....